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Taelus
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 10:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rarius

Ugh, this is bordering on trans 'representation' a'la DA:I.

In which a character exists literally just to have a discussion with another character about trans-sexuality. Then that character basically becomes a faceless NPC after that conversation.

Krem has more dialogue if you keep going back to him throughout the game. Even though he's not as developed as the companions or advisors he's still more than a faceless NPC He's not a character who "exists to be trans" He's a minor character who happens to be trans.
Lamptramp
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by LionPride

Still really stupid to say that shit my lord...

Indeed it was, and they were called out on it many times but they did come back and offer a sincere apology off their own back without it escalating further, and that's something I see precious little of some days on GAF. Tensions run high and being lost in translation is a bitch.
Mergesort
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by broscientific

I apologize if I misconstrued your words or if my post came across as attacking. I guess I just see lumping this problem in with the larger issues of the game as a dismissal of the problem. I do think this whole thing stems from the game's development woes but what troubles me especially is why of all things, Bioware decided they could half ass this aspect of the game. I guess we'll see as more people play it how unique of an issue it is or if all of the character related dialogue or gameplay systems suffer. Finally, just to address what may seem like people attacking you or feeling very strongly: consider that in recent memory gay options in video games have been lacking. Anecdotally I do not think video games as a hobby is uncommon or rare amongst gay people. So when a series which had been on the right path in terms of inclusivity takes a step backwards it's upsetting and possibly even a little emotional for some people, self included to a degree, hence the strong response from people in this thread.

Thank you. I feel less unwelcome now. I agree with most people in this thread, it is just hard to bring that across^^ Misunderstanding can do a lot of damage. Considering the recent development in the gaming world I have to say I like where this is going. We have a bigger variety of characters than ever before. It's not perfect but it's getting better. This is also true for other media like TV shows. Has anyone seen Sense 8? I love that show!

This game really screams "unfinished". I hope we don't have to wait too long for patches.

Originally Posted by Lamptramp

10 posts above yours Flutter, they've apologised :)





I'm not sure we'll ever know the true reason, but I never imagined that for all their faults Bioware would shy away from something because its "more taboo" or that they feared for their ratings.

The only reason which seems to make sense to me is that its simply down to their direction, other things were more important for them and they had neither the skill or resources to "finish the job". Perhaps metrics showed that the gay male play-through was the one they could spend less resources on and subsequently we end up with what is presented. Whatever the reason its saddening that this is the choice they made, especially so given the "extra effort" they have seemingly spent on other playthroughs.

I agree I don't think Bioware(devs) is someone to chicken out because it's taboo. Management might have pushed them to get a teen or 16+ rating. Management does care too much for sales in this regard. But as there exist gay options, this doesn't excuse why they did this so half assed. Will the backlash they get from this game make them add the needed content? Was this done for other games before?
DemWalls
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ketkat

If you knew and agreed, then why did you say that to him?

Just seeing all the possible outcomes of the conversation, really. I honestly don't remember what I chose, the first time (which is the one after which I save). And I don't take games so seriously that my character will never, ever say something that I wouldn't.

Anyway, generally, you may believe me or not, but my characters hardly reflect me in... anything, really. That's the point of role playing, isn't it?
Harlequin
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:12 PM)

Originally Posted by LionPride

Still really stupid to say that shit my lord...

Yeah, but everyone says stupid shit once in a while. They offered an apology so let's meet them halfway and accept it.

On an unrelated note, the game's lead designer claims on Twitter that he's had a meeting about the M/M romance issues. Not entirely sure if I'm buying it but if it's true (and if they talked about more than just lowering the requirement for the achievement to two romances LOL), then that seems like a good first step at least. (Of course, this never should've even been an issue in the first place but it'd still be appreciated if they somehow managed to make it up to all the gay Scott players.)

https://twitter.com/tibermoon/status/844302426685558784
Ketkat
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by DemWalls

Just seeing all the possible outcomes of the conversation, really. I honestly don't remember what I chose, the first time (which is the one after which I save). And I don't take games so seriously that my character will never, ever say something that I wouldn't.

Anyway, generally, you may believe me or not, but my characters hardly reflect me in... anything, really. That's the point of role playing, isn't it?

Then it doesn't matter what YOU knew and agreed with. You were role playing as a character who was being incredibly insensitive and insulting, so Iron Bull put your character in their place. It really felt fine for what your character says.
Mergesort
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Alienfan

I think the greatest crime is that the gay love interests are all so God damn boring as well. You can't bone the squad

And it's important because it's one of the very few video games that lets you play as a gay character if you want to

I fear that a big problem, in mass effect in general, is that there is no set sex orientation for NPC's. It's not easy to develop characters that can do both. I would rather prefer that the devs create better NPC's that have a set sexual orientation. In my opinion that would help immensely. Adding to that they need more LGBT writers and actors to make it more realistic. If you don't do that the characters end up being boring and not realistic.
Harlequin
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:18 PM)

Originally Posted by Mergesort

I fear that a big problem, in mass effect in general, is that there is no set sex orientation for NPC's. It's not easy to develop characters that can do both. I would rather prefer that the devs create better NPC's that have a set sexual orientation. In my opinion that would help immensely. Adding to that they need more LGBT writers and actors to make it more realistic. If you don't do that the characters end up being boring and not realistic.

But that's the case. Liam, Cora, Jaal,etc. are straight, PeeBee, Vetra, Reyes,etc. are bi and Suvi and Gil are gay. The NPCs in ME do have fixed sexual orientations.
Mergesort
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Harlequin

Yeah, but everyone says stupid shit once in a while. They offered an apology so let's meet them halfway and accept it.

On an unrelated note, the game's lead designer claims on Twitter that he's had a meeting about the M/M romance issues. Not entirely sure if I'm buying it but if it's true (and if they talked about more than just lowering the requirement for the achievement to two romances LOL), then that seems like a good first step at least. (Of course, this never should've even been an issue in the first place but it'd still be appreciated if they somehow managed to make it up to all the gay Scott players.)

https://twitter.com/tibermoon/status/844302426685558784

Thank you for accepting :)



Now we have to get them to make a statement and suggest they fix this and add the need/wanted content.
Last edited by Mergesort; 03-21-2017 at 11:26 PM.
Mergesort
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Harlequin

But that's the case. Liam, Cora, Jaal,etc. are straight, PeeBee, Vetra, Reyes,etc. are bi and Suvi and Gil are gay. The NPCs in ME do have fixed sexual orientations.

Ah! really? Looks I always romanced the bi characters lol
I also haven't played andromeda yet.
Maledict
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mergesort

Ah! really? Looks I always romanced the bi characters lol
I also haven't played andromeda yet.

Yes. ME has always had straight and bi characters, and in ME3 it introduced gay characters as well. There was a gay male and gay female crew member, who could only be romanced if you were gay. They wouldn't hook up with opposite sex partners (and the female romance was actually fairly cool!).

Dragon Age went further, and made one of your party members gay only (Dorian).
Lamptramp
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Harlequin

Yeah, but everyone says stupid shit once in a while. They offered an apology so let's meet them halfway and accept it.

On an unrelated note, the game's lead designer claims on Twitter that he's had a meeting about the M/M romance issues. Not entirely sure if I'm buying it but if it's true (and if they talked about more than just lowering the requirement for the achievement to two romances LOL), then that seems like a good first step at least. (Of course, this never should've even been an issue in the first place but it'd still be appreciated if they somehow managed to make it up to all the gay Scott players.)

https://twitter.com/tibermoon/status/844302426685558784

Did they just assume that people wouldn't notice?

I honestly don't know how they could pull something off at this stage to make it better, unless they had lost (then found again) a USB key with squad-mate seven on it, but then he'd be all dirty from being down the back of the fridge, and no-one wants that.
:)
Anyway I have to sleep, its been a weird one but it was nice to see some good conversation in here.
Mergesort
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Maledict

Yes. ME has always had straight and bi characters, and in ME3 it introduced gay characters as well. There was a gay male and gay female crew member, who could only be romanced if you were gay. They wouldn't hook up with opposite sex partners (and the female romance was actually fairly cool!).

Dragon Age went further, and made one of your party members gay only (Dorian).

Hmm i really didn't know. I played Mass effect 3 iirc both as male and female or was it mass effect 2, don't remember, but all I ever did was m/f, f/f and f/m. Liara as an Asari must be bi right?
amoebae
Junior Member
(Yesterday, 12:06 AM)
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The worst thing of it all, imo, is the love and care they lavished on Cora's sex scene. It looks like a freaking tech demo. It's amazing.

It looks like Liam/Sara don't get anything like that.

Peebee comes closest, but it lacks polish and the body models aren't as high quality as Cora's tech demo.

Of course, the gay guys don't even get a sex scene. Implied sex in fade-to-black for one, nothing at all for the other bar a bit of smooching.

So while it's out of order that gay men get shafted (not in the good way) yet again, no one comes close to Cora.

She's like Liara on steroids for the amount of love lavished on her by the team.
Shinypogs
Member
(Yesterday, 06:07 AM)

Originally Posted by amoebae

The worst thing of it all, imo, is the love and care they lavished on Cora's sex scene. It looks like a freaking tech demo. It's amazing.

It looks like Liam/Sara don't get anything like that.

Peebee comes closest, but it lacks polish and the body models aren't as high quality as Cora's tech demo.

Of course, the gay guys don't even get a sex scene. Implied sex in fade-to-black for one, nothing at all for the other bar a bit of smooching.

So while it's out of order that gay men get shafted (not in the good way) yet again, no one comes close to Cora.

She's like Liara on steroids for the amount of love lavished on her by the team.

Having looked up the scenes in question it's impossible to disagree. Cora's sex scene had better animation and sound production then anyone else I could find. You can see who the dev team put the most time into.

Sure there can be upgraded graphics via patches but you can't patch out giving certain groups less content at launch/in general, you can't take back teasing people with Jaal and then not warning them when for whatever circumstances he became a female only romance. While you can patch the horrible trans character introduction you can't take back how they were wriiten at launch and multiple failures that had to occur to get that dialogue approved.

For everything that can be fixed with time there are multiple grievances that will continue to stand for which Bioware should be taken to task.

I can only hope the outcry sees results.
Mr. Pointy
Member
(Yesterday, 06:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by amoebae

The worst thing of it all, imo, is the love and care they lavished on Cora's sex scene. It looks like a freaking tech demo. It's amazing.

This is just my Alex Jones-esque conspiracy theory, but I feel Bioware wanted Cora to be the character the SFM porn crowd would really latch on to. The original trilogy has a pretty big following, of course. But I think the janky animations and Netherrealm tier face modeling have turned them off.

On topic, I really can't believe Bioware didn't make Liam and/or squid-cat man bisexual. It's a pretty big oversight. They know they have a big LGBT+ following, and I believe Dorian was well-regarded, so you'd think someone would have said something.
TLS Lex
Junior Member
(Yesterday, 07:16 AM)
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Maybe I'm just super cynical at this stage but I don't see how the devs can put all this effort into one or two particular sex scenes then somehow not realise that a particular set don't even have actual sex scenes. I get that different teams may have worked on different scenes but someone has to review this, surely.

It seems to be a decision they've made, for better or worse. I just don't see how it can be an "oversight".
le.phat
Member
(Yesterday, 07:30 AM)
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That's what happens when you approach diversity/gender as a business opportunity, as opposed to trying to truly add to the gender movement at large. It's financial tokenism at it's worst.
kirbyfan407
Member
(Yesterday, 07:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Harlequin

Yeah, but everyone says stupid shit once in a while. They offered an apology so let's meet them halfway and accept it.

On an unrelated note, the game's lead designer claims on Twitter that he's had a meeting about the M/M romance issues. Not entirely sure if I'm buying it but if it's true (and if they talked about more than just lowering the requirement for the achievement to two romances LOL), then that seems like a good first step at least. (Of course, this never should've even been an issue in the first place but it'd still be appreciated if they somehow managed to make it up to all the gay Scott players.)

https://twitter.com/tibermoon/status/844302426685558784

Originally Posted by Mergesort

Thank you for accepting :)


Now we have to get them to make a statement and suggest they fix this and add the need/wanted content.

This is a good start and this kind of listening is very appreciated. Hopefully it results in action. It's the combination of all the elements—the achievement, the lack of a squadmate, and especially how the stories were executed compared to the other characters—that results in this weird feeling of there being a particular lack of caring (resulting in deprioritization and/or originating from disinterest) when it came to including these options. Hopefully the team realizes that it's not just one thing that caused some to respond as they have as the team discusses this. (For a few reasons, I'd also personally prefer the team doesn't just fix it by patching Jaal or Liam to suddenly be bi, even if that's probably the easiest option.)

The tweets mention "forums." Is that a reference to some kind of official forum? Has this been a topic of discussion on there? I suppose I'm curious how much this topic is being discussed in places that aren't NeoGAF.
Last edited by kirbyfan407; Yesterday at 09:08 AM.
Mergesort
Member
(Yesterday, 08:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by kirbyfan407

This is a good start and this kind of listening is very appreciated. Hopefully it results in action. It's the combination of all the elements—the achievement, the lack of a squadmate, and especially how the stories were executed compared to the other characters—that results in this weird feeling of there being a particular lack of caring (resulting in deprioritization or originating from disinterest) when it came to including these options. Hopefully the team realizes that it's not just one thing that caused some to respond as they have as the team discusses this. (For a few reasons, I'd also personally prefer the team doesn't just fix it by patching Jaal or Liam to suddenly be bi, even if that's probably the easiest option.)

The tweets mention "forums." Is that a reference to some kind of official forum? Has this been a topic of discussion on there? I suppose I'm curious how much this topic is being discussed in places that aren't NeoGAF.

http://forum.bioware.com/ It's offline, like forever. I guess they do mean NeoGaf, but also other forums and websites.
Wesley-Sigma
Junior Member
(Yesterday, 09:07 AM)
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Sounds like this game has been handled poorly in all fronts. A shame. No wonder why they have been so secret with this title.
Teran
Junior Member
(Yesterday, 10:21 AM)
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Are people really surprised by this? Bioware are the same company that thinks pigeonholing your character into single minded morality (by walling off beneficial options behind high alignment modifiers) is granting the player freedom of choice.

If they can't even design basic game systems that underpin the entire series properly, how on earth are they going to get LGBT rep right?
Tenacious-D
Member
(Yesterday, 10:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by amoebae

The worst thing of it all, imo, is the love and care they lavished on Cora's sex scene. It looks like a freaking tech demo. It's amazing.

It looks like Liam/Sara don't get anything like that.

Peebee comes closest, but it lacks polish and the body models aren't as high quality as Cora's tech demo.

Of course, the gay guys don't even get a sex scene. Implied sex in fade-to-black for one, nothing at all for the other bar a bit of smooching.

So while it's out of order that gay men get shafted (not in the good way) yet again, no one comes close to Cora.

She's like Liara on steroids for the amount of love lavished on her by the team.

My problem with the Sara and Peebee scene, aside from some janky lighting and wine pouring animation, is that the animations aren't different between male and female Ryder. Peebee ryds FemRyder like a man, it's really odd. They did a lesbian scene in DA:I. They know how it should work.
Last edited by Tenacious-D; Yesterday at 10:37 AM.
Harlequin
Member
(Yesterday, 11:41 AM)

Originally Posted by Tenacious-D

My problem with the Sara and Peebee scene, aside from some janky lighting and wine pouring animation, is that the animations aren't different between male and female Ryder. Peebee ryds FemRyder like a man, it's really odd. They did a lesbian scene in DA:I. They know how it should work.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect are created by entirely different teams, unfortunately. That's why Dragon Age is pretty much always better at these types of things than Mass Effect (which was actually pretty terrible regarding LGBT+ stuff for its first two entries).
Lamptramp
Member
(Yesterday, 12:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Harlequin

Dragon Age and Mass Effect are created by entirely different teams, unfortunately. That's why Dragon Age is pretty much always better at these types of things than Mass Effect (which was actually pretty terrible regarding LGBT+ stuff for its first two entries).

I was thinking earlier its certainly something to bear in mind but I'm not sure as an excuse it's watertight (I know you're only stating the fact and not using it as such, and in fairness neither have I seen Bioware doing so).

The fact of the matter is different teams or no Andromeda (and DA:I) is sold with "Bioware" on the box, its advertised as a game by "Bioware". Bioware is for sure a name which helps to sell a product over a unknown studio, for sure the name is practically synonymous with good writing/characters/inclusivity* at this point. If management are happy to use that name to help sell products then they should be prepared to have it judged against everything else Bioware. They can't have it both ways, if they use the Bioware name they can't be excused by saying "well we're the Bioware: Terrible writers studio".

Again I know you didn't mention it as an excuse and I don't think anyone has, I just feel that were someone to use it as such I don't think it would be acceptable. I think if you use a particular brand a certain level of quality/care/attention should be expected across that brand.

*Obviously "Good writing" is subjective and there are plenty of examples to show otherwise but I'd argue that the Bioware brand is one that at the least strives to be above the curve
Harlequin
Member
(Yesterday, 12:32 PM)
Oh, no, I didn't mean to say that that was an excuse, I just offered it as an explanation for why they're suddenly getting stuff wrong they got right in DAI but that doesn't change or excuse the fact that they did get it wrong.
MTC100
Junior Member
(Yesterday, 12:38 PM)
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Before we discuss the LGBT issue, I have a question: Is this game also available in good?
Lamptramp
Member
(Yesterday, 12:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Harlequin

Oh, no, I didn't mean to say that that was an excuse, I just offered it as an explanation for why they're suddenly getting stuff wrong they got right in DAI but that doesn't change or excuse the fact that they did get it wrong.

Yeah I know, understood what you were saying 100% :)

Just thinking aloud for the sake of conversation and if I'm honest to keep the topic alive.
Jebusman
Member
(Yesterday, 12:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by MTC100

Before we discuss the LGBT issue, I have a question: Is this game also available in good?

I'm glad that you waited ~500 posts into a serious discussion to bring out the edgy joke.
Harlequin
Member
(Yesterday, 02:23 PM)

Originally Posted by Lamptramp

Yeah I know, understood what you were saying 100% :)

Just thinking aloud for the sake of conversation and if I'm honest to keep the topic alive.

Yeah. And I do agree that the BioWare name comes with certain expectations and that those expectations are in large part shaped by Dragon Age, too, so I don't think it's entirely unfair to judge a Mass Effect game using standards that have partly been set by Dragon Age. Though even Mass Effect 3 had a bisexual male squadmate so even if we're just looking at the Mass Effect series, it still feels like a step back in that regard. (Not to mention that one of the big issues isn't just how the M/M content compares to M/M content in other BioWare games but that it doesn't feel like gay/bi male characters and romances received equal treatment or the same amount of care as non-M/M romances, even disregarding the raw numbers which we were always going to lose out on, anyway.)

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