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DVCY201
Member
(05-20-2017, 03:19 AM)
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Studios are in a rough position where they practically only see profits from actual Blu Ray sales. Products such as Figures, Light Novels, Manga, and Character Goods are all divided amongst the Production Committee who get the subsequent profits.

When you couple this with an increasing amount of poor, unfinished shows or 'advertisements' for the source material, then yea, the bubble is precarious. I love this medium, but the inner workings of it disgust me; it's practically fuelled by people who are passionate and content with living under minimum wage
Violet_0
(05-20-2017, 03:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Geist-

I imagine this is the reason 2D animation has died/is dying in most other countries in favor of CG.

it's not like CGI animators get payed any better
Reallink
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Violet_0

it's not like CGI animators get payed any better

Blur's budgets were reputed to be approaching a million dollars per 30 secs - 1 minute several years ago. IIRC it originated from an interview where a game's producer or something made an off handed remark on how high quality and expensive the cutscenes were. Not sure if there's cheaper competition now.
Piers
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:28 AM)
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My god, you mean animators and artists don't accept payment in fun anymore?
The industry is finished.
RM8
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:42 AM)
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This is a great opportunity for Japan to get rid of anime. Let's turn a negative into a positive!

But really, it's hard to not believe part of it is how extreme and weird anime has become. Maybe this kind of shows has always existed, but back when I was a kid you could turn on the TV and find... well, western TV friendly Japanese animation, and that's simply not the case anymore. Anime cornered itself by becoming fringe entertainment in a reality where studios can't even afford to properly animate stuff.
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(05-20-2017, 04:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by Piers

My god, you mean animators and artists don't accept payment in fun anymore?
The industry is finished.

They do actually, and this is part of the problem. It's an industry made of enthusiasts, meaning they have little collective leverage because for every one animator who stands their ground (the ones that leave for example), there's a few standing in line behind them willing to work for peanuts in order to keep their livelihood going.

It's sort of like the high turnover in game testing, one of the lowest rungs on the game dev ladder, but combined with Japan's culture of overwork, the situation has gotten much worse with no signs of improving.

This is why the industry in sum can somehow expand while the people who're most integral to propping it up suffer more and more.
Last edited by Haly; 05-20-2017 at 04:49 AM.
Korigama
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:07 AM)
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Between the ridiculously poor pay for animators and the excessive amount of shows in production, many of them vying for the money of the same narrow market of enthusiasts who buy niche and notably expensive products in order to turn a profit, this was inevitable.
Imperfected
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:09 AM)
I would have honestly expected more than 25% are in total freefall, to be honest.
lupinko
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(05-20-2017, 05:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Orcastar

Just outsource animation to India or the Philippines or wherever. Problem solved.

Toei already does, Dragonball S and the recent movies are all animated by Toei Phils.
25% isn't even that high for any kind of industry.
squall23
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(05-20-2017, 05:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by antibolo

There would need to be a huge cultural shift in the industry for that to happen. As it stands right now, CG in anime is only used as a time and cost cutting measure with very little care being put into it. CG-only shows all look like garbage, and CG elements in non-CG shows are always janky crap meant to cut down production time in complex scenes, and not to actually look better.

Shirobako had a great episode about it. The stigma on CG is very real in anime studios.

(btw anyone who cares about anime needs to watch Shirobako asap if they haven't yet)

Which is a shame because there were some really good CG shows back in the early 2000s when CG wasn't as inexpensive as it was today. Hell, some of the CG back then is still better than the stuff that we have now.

Crush Gear Turbo, my favourite anime with CG battles ever lasted 68 episodes with the same high quality.

That's not to say everything in that time period looked amazing though. Webdiver is infamous for having ass CG despite being a really cool concept.

Rhanitan
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 05:29 AM)
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The studios need to simplify the shows they make and be pickier with what kind of shows they greenlight. Its not that hard to look at a script or storyboard and realise that it is too intense for the budget. If they know that their employees cant make a decent living off of a show then then it would be better off to just let it go and wait for something better to come along. It's actually better for the animators if you let them go so they can go find a job at a better studio or get a minimum wage job they can live off of.
ViciousDS
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(05-20-2017, 05:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by NESpowerhouse

You monster Frisbee.


Well kakakrabby patty
Unknown Soldier
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(05-20-2017, 05:52 AM)
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Only 1 in 4 actually seems awfully healthy for that industry
antibolo
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(05-20-2017, 06:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

This is a great opportunity for Japan to get rid of anime. Let's turn a negative into a positive!

But really, it's hard to not believe part of it is how extreme and weird anime has become. Maybe this kind of shows has always existed, but back when I was a kid you could turn on the TV and find... well, western TV friendly Japanese animation, and that's simply not the case anymore. Anime cornered itself by becoming fringe entertainment in a reality where studios can't even afford to properly animate stuff.

Not sure what you're talking about, anime for children very much still exists.
Subpar Scrub
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(05-20-2017, 06:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by - J - D -

Are people buying less merchandise? It's where the money used to be.

Well they sure as shit aren't forking over like $160 for a fucking Blu-ray set of like 26 episodes.
Usobuko
Member
(05-20-2017, 06:16 AM)
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They need a Gabe Newell equivalent that is being accepted by the West and can promote legal ownership of anime instead of pirating.

Piracy is properly the biggest lost of income here.

Originally Posted by Orcastar

Just outsource animation to India or the Philippines or wherever. Problem solved.

These people are not going to work 5 hours for $2.
Barkley's Justice
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(05-20-2017, 06:17 AM)
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Product placement is also a big deal, seldom spoken about.
petran79
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(05-20-2017, 06:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by Usobuko

They need a Gabe Newell equivalent that is being accepted by the West and can promote legal ownership of anime instead of pirating.

Piracy is properly the biggest lost of income here.

You mean domestic piracy?
TV rips are everywhere.

On the other hand subscription channels everywhere have become very draconian with recording content. You cant even record it on external media anymore. Remains stored in receiver and if suscription runs out its blocked. Plus some times you have to pay extra to record it. Lot of viewers see those rips as convenience.
PartTimeWarrior
FullTimeStruggle
(05-20-2017, 06:50 AM)
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The first studio to adapt Lucifer and Biscuit Hammer into an anime will make bank
muu
Member
(05-20-2017, 06:58 AM)

Originally Posted by Usobuko

They need a Gabe Newell equivalent that is being accepted by the West and can promote legal ownership of anime instead of pirating.

Piracy is properly the biggest lost of income here.

The "sell DVD/bluray for profit" model didn't really show up until the late 90s, and before then the kind of shows you see now either existed as OVAs in smaller numbers, or not at all. Midnight broadcast of shows became a thing, which allowed shows to be created with shoestring budgets requiring only a small number of sales to be profitable.

And it's not like this goes without any effort. 2~3 main voice actors from the show routinely produce companion radio shows; you have collaboration events w/ anime stores; OP/ED cds with bonuses; story CDs; etc etc. There's definitely ways to be totally engrossed and consumed with a show, and it seems understandable considering the ridiculous prices they ask for DVD/Blurays ($60+ for 1hr of content that's already been freely distributed). I probably spent $1000+ on idolmaster CDs and content, and was going through on the full DVD set for Toradora until the last volume of the original novel shit on us fans. The problem with selling overseas isn't that the price is too high/too low/whatever, but that they never really tried to monetize selling the whole experience overseas.
RM8
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(05-20-2017, 06:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by antibolo

Not sure what you're talking about, anime for children very much still exists.

Why is it not marketable anymore, then? It's not a mainstream medium anymore.

Originally Posted by RM8

Why is it not marketable anymore, then? It's not a mainstream medium anymore.

That's sure is not true.
KraytarJ
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(05-20-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

Why is it not marketable anymore, then? It's not a mainstream medium anymore.

It's more mainstream than it's ever been. Especially in the west.
Orcastar
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(05-20-2017, 07:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by antibolo

I wonder what caused that huge spike in 2006?

Haruhi?
pbayne
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(05-20-2017, 07:06 AM)
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Fine. It'll suck for anyone put out of a job but the industry could stand to be hobbled a little, Theres no need at all for 50 odd shows a season, complete overkill and over-saturation. And pay and treat your employees better ffs.
Sibersk Esto
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(05-20-2017, 07:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

Why is it not marketable anymore, then? It's not a mainstream medium anymore.

How so?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
(05-20-2017, 07:07 AM)
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Anime seems like the very definition of loss leader. lol
RM8
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(05-20-2017, 07:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by PdotMichael

That's sure is not true.

Originally Posted by KraytarJ

It's more mainstream than it's ever been. Especially in the west.

Originally Posted by Sibersk Esto

How so?

Maybe my perspective is off, but there's no Japanese animation on public television in Mexico anymore, and when I was a kid, there were a lot of shows airing. Is this because of internet? I mean it could be. But people who are not into anime are not getting exposed to the medium at all. I know, say, Sailor Moon because all I had to do was turn on my TV on Saturdays and it was on. You didn't even need cable, it wasn't a special anime network, it was pretty much another cartoon show and not an enthusiast's product.
Haly
One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
(05-20-2017, 07:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by firehawk12

Anime seems like the very definition of loss leader. lol

I guess industry-wide (combining manga, anime and light novels/publishing) it is a loss leader. But what's actually happening is publishers are offloading the loss to the studios who continue to lose and survive entirely on constant life support while the people in merchandising profit off their sweat and tears.
perfectchaos007
Banned
(05-20-2017, 07:43 AM)
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Given just how many animes there are, like literally thousands, its amazing only 1/4th of them are struggling. Its mind boggling how many animes the market can support
firehawk12
Subete no aware
(05-20-2017, 07:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by Haly

I guess industry-wide (combining manga, anime and light novels/publishing) it is a loss leader. But what's actually happening is publishers are offloading the loss to the studios who continue to lose and survive entirely on constant life support while the people in merchandising profit off their sweat and tears.

Well, anime is the sweatshop part of the industry. It's why they can start offloading in between animation to Vietnam and China. I'm sure if the committees/IP holders had their way, they'd be more than happy to just have Chinese slave animators pump out their shows for a fraction of the cost. lol
Sibersk Esto
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(05-20-2017, 07:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

Maybe my perspective is off, but there's no Japanese animation on public television in Mexico anymore, and when I was a kid, there were a lot of shows airing. Is this because of internet? I mean it could be. But people who are not into anime are not getting exposed to the medium at all. I know, say, Sailor Moon because all I had to do was turn on my TV on Saturdays and it was on. You didn't even need cable, it wasn't a special anime network, it was pretty much another cartoon show and not an enthusiast's product.

There was a boom period of popular anime shows and merchandise for a long time since distributors playing catch up could pick the top shows which became hits (dbz). But those shows ended, the well on old material ran dry, and distributors basically had to choose among the new shows.

Except the boom period brought big sales numbers, and the Japanese companies demanded the same licensing fees for shows that had no chance at being as successful as the boom period shows, no matter how good they were. Plus, many Japanese companies refused to sell certain shows unless it was in package deals (you can get this show only if you buy these other shows), which could include unmarkatable crap. Plus, some distributors were owned by the original company who forced them to spend more and more on fucking everything they could unload.

Japan had a monopoly (duh) and when licensors paid them and didn't recoup their money, they shut down. And when anime fans saw how pricy anime DVDs (which had a lot of crap) were for 3 episodes, they went away to a new fancy little thing called internet piracy.

Those practices killed the anime licensing boom, which has stabled out but had to go almost exclusively online because that's where the fans were.
Lautaro
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(05-20-2017, 07:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Only 1 in 4 actually seems awfully healthy for that industry

I see I'm not the only one that thought that. Are there comparisons with other industries to know how bad (or good) is this? I know videogames is probably worse but I don't have numbers.
ArchAngel
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(05-20-2017, 08:19 AM)
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They just need to do more moe shit, right? RIGHT???

They lost me 6+ years ago as there were only fansercive crap in the seasons. Now I only watch One Piece and AoT.
Westlo
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(05-20-2017, 08:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Orcastar

Haruhi?

Haruhi aired in 2006.... anime projects take years to get off the ground....

The 05-07 period was such a great time for anime.....
arigato
Member
(05-20-2017, 08:36 AM)

Originally Posted by frontovik

So that's why they failed to do the latest Berserk anime justice :(

One of the big reasons indeed as to why Berserk turned out that way sadly..

Originally Posted by Master_Of_Illusion

There is a way to fix this, but anime studios are too blind to their own faults to see this

Step 2: Don't make a series based on a manga unless you have enough material to adapt. You're spreading the current workforce thin by constantly making 12 episode seasons for a million manga titles every year instead of waiting until there's enough material in a title for 26 to 50 episodes and banging it all out at once.
.

Alice in Borderland is a completed manga that's ripe for an anime adaptation.
Last edited by arigato; 05-20-2017 at 08:39 AM.
petran79
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(05-20-2017, 01:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sibersk Esto

Japan had a monopoly (duh) and when licensors paid them and didn't recoup their money, they shut down. And when anime fans saw how pricy anime DVDs (which had a lot of crap) were for 3 episodes, they went away to a new fancy little thing called internet piracy.

Those practices killed the anime licensing boom, which has stabled out but had to go almost exclusively online because that's where the fans were.

Where I lived a local distributor even distributed anime DVDs without license. They just translated the English subs. Some series werent complete, just the first 4 episodes. In mid 2000 I remember renting countless 4 episode DVDs that way. Full Metal Panic, Berserk, Lost Universe, Hellsing, Reign the Conqueror, Lodoss TV, Nazca, Getbackers, Weisskreuz, Patlabor Movie 3 etc plus lots of hentai

Eventually this company shut down but there was not any other way to bring those series here.
Chairmanchuck
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(05-20-2017, 01:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by RM8

This is a great opportunity for Japan to get rid of anime. Let's turn a negative into a positive!

But really, it's hard to not believe part of it is how extreme and weird anime has become. Maybe this kind of shows has always existed, but back when I was a kid you could turn on the TV and find... well, western TV friendly Japanese animation, and that's simply not the case anymore. Anime cornered itself by becoming fringe entertainment in a reality where studios can't even afford to properly animate stuff.

This is not true at all. The problem is more that a lot of the shows popular in the west are the, how to say, more "risky" ones.
You still have Uchouten Kazoku 2, Natsume Yuujinchou, Shouwa Genroku Rakugo etc.
Its just that a majority of fans wont talk about that, but rather about stuff like Keijo.

Originally Posted by Sibersk Esto

Japan had a monopoly (duh) and when licensors paid them and didn't recoup their money, they shut down. And when anime fans saw how pricy anime DVDs (which had a lot of crap) were for 3 episodes, they went away to a new fancy little thing called internet piracy.

A big part of the reasons where the japanese though and their outdated and absolutely horrible demands. I always talk about my experience working with a german anime publisher and I can tell you that its horrible working with the japanese. 3 episodes were normal, because japanese demanded LOTS of money.
Also there was a rule for 99% of anime, that, if you wanna buy a succesfull one, you can only get it, if you buy the rights for one that no one in Japan even had to watch.
Add stuff like "We want to see your DVD cover designs before you release it. Please send them via post to us and we will give our okay 1 month later. Or not if you have to rework the cover."

And a lot of other BS stuff.
Last edited by Chairmanchuck; 05-20-2017 at 01:28 PM.
zelas
Member
(05-20-2017, 01:45 PM)

Originally Posted by RM8

Maybe my perspective is off, but there's no Japanese animation on public television in Mexico anymore, and when I was a kid, there were a lot of shows airing. Is this because of internet? I mean it could be. But people who are not into anime are not getting exposed to the medium at all. I know, say, Sailor Moon because all I had to do was turn on my TV on Saturdays and it was on. You didn't even need cable, it wasn't a special anime network, it was pretty much another cartoon show and not an enthusiast's product.

You're not off. How easily non anime fans (kids and adults) can find anime over the air has changed drastically.
UrbanRats
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(05-20-2017, 01:47 PM)
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Honestly if you draw, being a 2d animator seems about the worst avenue for you.
A crushing amount of work, for near to no pay and almost zero recognition.
It is a great way to improve your skill tho, due to the massive grind, and demanding endevour.

Feel bad for them, even though finding an anime worth watching isn't that easy for me.
petran79
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(05-20-2017, 01:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chairmanchuck

This is not true at all. The problem is more that a lot of the shows popular in the west are the, how to say, more "risky" ones.
You still have Uchouten Kazoku 2, Natsume Yuujinchou, Shouwa Genroku Rakugo etc.
Its just that a majority of fans wont talk about that, but rather about stuff like Keijo.

I can see such shows only have a chance at niche PayTV anime channels were public censorship is not an issue.

Previous decades there was a high chance of watching questionable content even on prime Free to air TV. Stations regarded anime as cheap entertainment.

TV stations in Europe became now much more considerate towards younger viewers sensibilities, even abolishing toy advertisements during a show.
UrbanRats
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(05-20-2017, 01:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by petran79

I can see such shows only have a chance at niche PayTV anime channels were public censorship is not an issue.

Previous decades there was a high chance of watching questionable content even on prime Free to air TV. Stations regarded anime as cheap entertainment.

TV stations in Europe became now much more considerate towards younger viewers sensibilities, even abolishing toy advertisements during a show.

Cant be just that.

Even past the days of Hokuto no Ken, and Tiger man (or even Saint seya and Dragon Ball) and more questionably mature shows, stuff like Hamtaro, Bayblade, YuGiOh, Pokemon and other very kid friendly shows were all over tv 10 or so years ago.

Now you get reruns of the Simpsons, some american sitcom perhaps, but i dont think ive seen one anime on tv at all in years.
Lucumo
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(05-20-2017, 02:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by KraytarJ

It's more mainstream than it's ever been. Especially in the west.

Absolutely not. With the mainstream market breaking away, they focused on pandering to the niche audiences to get their money. That's also why anime don't reflect the Japanese taste but rather the taste of otakus and the like.
And as someone already said, anime on TV in the West is way down, it's not the 90s or early 00s anymore.

Originally Posted by Chairmanchuck

A big part of the reasons where the japanese though and their outdated and absolutely horrible demands. I always talk about my experience working with a german anime publisher and I can tell you that its horrible working with the japanese. 3 episodes were normal, because japanese demanded LOTS of money.
Also there was a rule for 99% of anime, that, if you wanna buy a succesfull one, you can only get it, if you buy the rights for one that no one in Japan even had to watch.
Add stuff like "We want to see your DVD cover designs before you release it. Please send them via post to us and we will give our okay 1 month later. Or not if you have to rework the cover."

And a lot of other BS stuff.

True...and yep, like 30€ for three episodes? No, thanks.
Rumblebones
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(05-20-2017, 02:10 PM)
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More fans need to support the official release and more studios need to embrace their western audiences through more open and easily accessible means of paying for content, on a global scale.
Bubble Metropolis
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(05-20-2017, 02:15 PM)
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Living in Japan, I am always stunned at how little money the people that work on anime make when anime on DVD/Blu-ray costs an absolute fortune, especially in comparison to manga which is reguarly like $4 per book.

Just looking at the first thing that popped up under Anime Blu-ray on Amazon Japan, the Cardcaptor Sakura movie has a list price of around $60. It has a release date of 2011, and in that 6 years it has eked down to around $40.

The same movie on Blu-ray can be had over at Amazon USA for $19. It has a release date of 2014.

No one that I know here actually buys anime. I work as a teacher, so I interact with kids of all ages every day, and none of them watch anime aside from incidentally catching an episode or two on TV. It's just not affordable. If you buy it at all, you probably buy it used at the Book-Off or another second-hand shop.

Hopefully that changes with streaming services slowly making ground here, but I'm sure the production companies will keep a typically very tight leash on what gets thrown up on streaming services and for how long.
Last edited by Bubble Metropolis; 05-20-2017 at 02:17 PM.
Chococat
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(05-20-2017, 02:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Skittles

If blu ray prices weren't fucking stupid for no reason they would make a lot more money in general. I should not be paying more than $30-$40 for an entire season (26 episodes).

Wow. You're spoiled.

I remember paying $35 for ONE episode/OAV of Bubblegum Crisis in America.

The price for anime in Japan has always been high because it is a niche market.

They always had problems price to profit ratio, but I can't image dropping the price in America has helped them turn a profit. Seems to be the opposite. They are worse now that in the 80-90's. More people watch, fewer people buy because of getting it free through various means.

They system has been broke forever. The only benefit is animator can build a resume doing anime for a few years and move on to a real career in gaming.
bjork
(05-20-2017, 02:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by BocoDragon

Self correcting problem:

Anime dies due to lack of viewers,
Therefore Japanese people start hooking up and having kids again,
Therefore more viewers to watch anime

they're just not watching the right animes

petran79
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(05-20-2017, 03:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by UrbanRats

Cant be just that.

Even past the days of Hokuto no Ken, and Tiger man (or even Saint seya and Dragon Ball) and more questionably mature shows, stuff like Hamtaro, Bayblade, YuGiOh, Pokemon and other very kid friendly shows were all over tv 10 or so years ago.

Now you get reruns of the Simpsons, some american sitcom perhaps, but i dont think ive seen one anime on tv at all in years.

The last 3 shows you mention still sell merchandise toys and where I live Beyblade has some reruns. Still situation is worse than 10 years ago when they showed shows like Shaman King for the same age group.

Last series that had moderate success 3 years ago was Mermaid Melody Pichi Pitch, thanks to the very good dub. Our version was based on the Spanish dub.Almost reaching Sailor Moon status among kids. Songs were very good too. Unfortunately after the series ended there was no effort to bring something similar from Japan. So whatever success was built it quickly faded. But series proved potential was still there.
jstripes
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(05-20-2017, 04:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Master_Of_Illusion

There is a way to fix this, but anime studios are too blind to their own faults to see this...


Step 1: Cut down on making cutesy cheesecake shows just for the sake of pandering to horny weebs. You're not gonna make money by catering to such a small niche. Put your resources elsewhere.

That's actually a cash cow for them, because obsessive otaku buy all the DVDs and merchandise. It's like telling the Japanese music industry to stop producing idols.

A sad state of affairs.

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