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Golden_Pigeon
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:17 AM)
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What the armenian genocide have to do with Kurds-Turks relationship ? The kurds are HATED by the armenians since they were heavily involved in mass killing against armenians in the 19th century.

If you want me to speak about how Turkish nationalism suppressed and oppressed Kurds since the kemalist revolution, i can. The systematic suppression of the kurdish identity and language is what gave life to terrorist movement like PKK alongside with the fierce political repression they got from the national turkish army since the 20's. I have been in Kurdish neighbourhood in Istanbul when they weren't allowed to speak kurdish in school and had to salute Ataturk statue claiming to be proud of being of the "glorious turkish race". Every religious and ethnics minorites were crushed by the big ataturk nationalist revolution. Ataturk was the biggest inspiration of Hitler, but yet you'll find a lot of people here praising him since he westernized Turkey.

I know all of that. Oppression don't justify terrorism nor ethnic cleansing, though. One of my roommate in Turkey was a Kurd, and he hated PKK more than me. Most of Kurds hate PKK. It's why it's totally crazy to see people in the West thinking they are supporting kurds while they are in fact supporting totalitarian terrorists groups.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 05-17-2017 at 05:30 AM.
brianmcdoogle
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:18 AM)
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Chilling video, but amazing camerawork by whoever recorded that footage. It honestly felt like a film.
superdeluxe
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:18 AM)
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Camera guy video taping injured woman, LE (Secret Service) more worried about getting the camera guy 'outta there'

https://twitter.com/mutludc/status/864635683687870468
Alucrid
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(05-17-2017, 05:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by Incarmine

Cause I see here on poligaf numerous instances of people expressing their desire to do bodily harm to neo-nazis, white supremacists in general, etc. People celebrating when Spencer got decked.

So I want to make sure that people are condemning this because in this case Turkish nationals under diplomatic immunity assaulted OUR citizens on OUR soil, and then got away free under the cover of diplomatic immunity. I want to make sure THAT'S the reason why we're condemning this attack, but are okay with beating up white supremacists, since that's mostly American nationals attacking fellow nationals.

why don't you go pose your question in the poligaf thread?
superdeluxe
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by brianmcdoogle

Chilling video, but amazing camerawork by whoever recorded that footage. It honestly felt like a film.

You could see from other videos they had GoPro A on stilts
Incarmine
Banned
(05-17-2017, 05:20 AM)

Originally Posted by Alucrid

why don't you go pose your question in the poligaf thread?

I didn't know there's an actual poli-gaf. I thought that was what neogaf called the off-topic section. So then I'll ask here then. Why?
macfoshizzle
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:21 AM)
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Cmon guys. You have to give to the awesome camera work right?
bsp
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:21 AM)
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They'll find a way to blame it on the Kurds.
Alucrid
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:26 AM)
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Originally Posted by Incarmine

I didn't know there's an actual poli-gaf. I thought that was what neogaf called the off-topic section. So then I'll ask here then. Why?

the off-topic section is called off-topic. poligaf is a well known community thread whose name doesn't get invoked out of the blue. but if you don't understand why someone would be more sympathetic about seeing a woman or an old man repeatedly kicked while on the ground by erdogan's thugs compared to a neo nazi white supremacist being sucker punched well that's your problem.
commedieu
Aliens made this post
(05-17-2017, 05:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by Incarmine

Cause I see here on poligaf numerous instances of people expressing their desire to do bodily harm to neo-nazis, white supremacists in general, etc. People celebrating when Spencer got decked.

So I want to make sure that people are condemning this because in this case Turkish nationals under diplomatic immunity assaulted OUR citizens on OUR soil, and then got away free under the cover of diplomatic immunity. I want to make sure THAT'S the reason why we're condemning this attack, but are okay with beating up white supremacists, since that's mostly American nationals attacking fellow nationals.

I knew this was coming because folks are cowards and can't say what they mean here.

The difference here is a full assault on protesters. Nazis have parades and they aren't assaulted full force by an organized security force of minorities, when they are. There are repercussions and arrests. These people weren't all nazis. There is zero tolerance for white supremacists in this nation. Because it's not just a grey political opinion.

I know you don't want to see a difference, but a man being punched for preaching that the nation needs to be rid of people of color, is vastly different than a trained force attacking elderly people and women.

You're transparent as hell. I just want to make sure you understand THAT.
Neptonic
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:34 AM)
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The video stabilization on that clip just adds to the unreal nature of the whole situation. This country is losing control.
reckless
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:35 AM)

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

If you want me to speak about how Turkish nationalism suppressed and oppressed Kurds since the kemalist revolution, i can. The systematic suppression of the kurdish identity and language is what gave life to terrorist movement like PKK alongside with the fierce political repression they got from the national turkish army since the 20's. I have been in Kurdish neighbourhood in Istanbul when they weren't allowed to speak kurdish in school and had to salute Ataturk statue claiming to be proud of being of the "glorious turkish race". Every religious and ethnics minorites were crushed by the big ataturk nationalist revolution. Ataturk was the biggest inspiration of Hitler, but yet you'll find a lot of people here praising him since he westernized Turkey.

I know all of that. Oppression don't justify terrorism nor ethnic cleansing, though. One of my roommate in Turkey was a Kurd, and he hated PKK more than me. Most of Kurds hate PKK. It's why it's totally crazy to see people in the West thinking they are supporting kurds while they are in fact supporting totalitarian terrorists groups.

I'd say the entourage the works for Erdogan are a hell of a lot more responsible for terrorism and ethnic cleansing then some random American Kurds protesting in the U.S... I'd also say attacking some protesters seems like terrorism to me
Kurdel
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:42 AM)
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Wow, that video was shocking!
Prost
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:46 AM)
That was insane to watch. Bodyguards in full suits running after and beating the shit out of protesters, looks like the aimed directly for the few women in the group, too. Disgusting.
Golden_Pigeon
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by reckless

I'd say the entourage the works for Erdogan are a hell of a lot more responsible for terrorism and ethnic cleansing then some random American Kurds protesting in the U.S... I'd also say attacking some protesters seems like terrorism to me

The groups in Syria that were supported by Turkey were supported by the US also.
If attacking protesters is the same as sending suicide bombers in crowded streets, sure.

I never said that those protesters had done anything justifying violence against them. So i don't understand the point of making those kind of equivalence. And no, Turkish National Army is not the same as PKK/YPG. They are not accused of ethnic cleansing and of carrying out terrorists attacks by Humans Rights groups around the world. They are accused of many others things, like blatant violation of HR in kurdish area in Turkey, but not those.
Dmax3901
Member
(05-17-2017, 05:54 AM)
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Fucking scum.
Kerensky
Junior Member
(05-17-2017, 05:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Incarmine

Cause I see here on poligaf numerous instances of people expressing their desire to do bodily harm to neo-nazis, white supremacists in general, etc. People celebrating when Spencer got decked.

So I want to make sure that people are condemning this because in this case Turkish nationals under diplomatic immunity assaulted OUR citizens on OUR soil, and then got away free under the cover of diplomatic immunity. I want to make sure THAT'S the reason why we're condemning this attack, but are okay with beating up white supremacists, since that's mostly American nationals attacking fellow nationals.

At the end of the day, it's still a group of white protesters wanting a people to leave, a minority people if i might add.

but you are right, the situation has a more than tenuous comparison to the aforementioned incident, it is strange that the reactions to it differ.
Incarmine
Banned
(05-17-2017, 05:59 AM)

Originally Posted by commedieu

I knew this was coming because folks are cowards and can't say what they mean here.

The difference here is a full assault on protesters. Nazis have parades and they aren't assaulted full force by an organized security force of minorities, when they are. There are repercussions and arrests. These people weren't all nazis. There is zero tolerance for white supremacists in this nation. Because it's not just a grey political opinion.

I know you don't want to see a difference, but a man being punched for preaching that the nation needs to be rid of people of color, is vastly different than a trained force attacking elderly people and women.

You're transparent as hell. I just want to make sure you understand THAT.

I would argue against there being zero tolerance for white supremacists in this country, since we elected a president who ran a campaign with said ideology as one of its pillars, however much he and his supporters might claim otherwise.

And I know little about the group that the protesters are representing.

However, you are probably absolutely right about me. In my point of view, a physically vulnerable person with a destructive idea is infinitely more dangerous than an armed thug. That idea can spread and wreak much more havoc on a society than any gun or bomb can. Look at all the frail, elderly men in the Republican party that any of us can probably beat up any day of the week, and how much damage they are doing to this country with their ideas.

Since I know nothing about Turkish or Kurd politics, what if those protesters were white supremacists/Neo Nazis? And a group of Israeli bodyguards started attacking them? Honestly, I'm hard-pressed to sympathize. From my view, their ideas are hurting me more than the attackers are hurting them. Also the election cycle and these few months of the Trump presidency have greatly weakened my faith in humanity, so yeah I might have shed some of my compassion for other people.
Pizza
Member
(05-17-2017, 06:00 AM)
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Uh what the FUCK are the cops doing?

This is the part where they protect and serve, right?

Like literally?
KevinRo
Member
(05-17-2017, 06:00 AM)
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Makes me sick. I don't understand why there isn't a bigger outrage. Physically attacking American citizens while on a political mission should never go unpunished.
NimbusD
Member
(05-17-2017, 06:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by Lil'DigiOp

THESE COPS ARE FUCKING PUSSIES.

Dude walks right by and kicks the woman and these bitch ass cops are just pushing people....

Some of these dudes were even fighting cops!!

Fucking pussies, but they'll kill a citizen in a hearbeat if it got like this domestically.

Fuck it

Not only that but it looks like they're more interested in holding back the protesters and letting the thugs just walk away and repeatedly try to rush back at the protesters. Fucking useless..
kess
Member
(05-17-2017, 06:02 AM)
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Trump's admin especially loves Erdogan because his "deep state" claims were probably inspired by the Ergenekon trials.

Trump may be ignorant, but not all his advisors are.
akira28
am I an eager baby bird?
am I a cute baby bunny?
(05-17-2017, 06:03 AM)
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probably foreign nationals with diplomatic immunity.

if they were his entourage. probably high fives all around for kicking the old guy.
Golden_Pigeon
Member
(05-17-2017, 06:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by kess

Trump's admin especially loves Erdogan because his "deep state" claims were probably inspired by the Ergenekon trials.

Trump may be ignorant, but not all his advisors are.

Except the deep state was real in Turkey as they killed a lot of people and were responsible of a lot of military coup in Turkish history. You cannot compare what was the Turkish state and trump delirium. The Turkish state was built against the turkish society since day one.
reckless
Member
(05-17-2017, 06:11 AM)

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

The groups in Syria that were supported by Turkey were supported by the US also.
If attacking protesters is the same as sending suicide bombers in crowded streets, sure.

I never said that those protesters had done anything justifying violence against them. So i don't understand the point of making those kind of equivalence. And no, Turkish National Army is not the same as PKK/YPG. They are not accused of ethnic cleansing and of carrying out terrorists attacks by Humans Rights groups around the world. They are accused of many others things, like blatant violation of HR in kurdish area in Turkey, but not those.

Must have forgotten when the U.S supported ISIS because Turkey is/was indirectly and directly
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-...b_6128950.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/links...eniable-2015-7

Yeah the Turkish Army haven't been doing ethnic cleansing, but the groups Erdogans' government has and is supporting sure as hell have.
NiiloPielinen
Junior Member
(05-17-2017, 06:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by Lactose_Intolerant

I love how the police do nothing about the guys kicking people on the ground or going after the ones already in police custody.

Diplomatic immunity.
Golden_Pigeon
Member
(05-17-2017, 06:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by reckless

Must have forgotten when the U.S supported ISIS because Turkey is/was indirectly and directly
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-...b_6128950.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/links...eniable-2015-7

Yeah the Turkish Army haven't been doing ethnic cleansing, but the groups Erdogans' government has and is supporting sure as hell have.

I don't have time to each allegation one by one since you're never addressing the replies i make, you're just bringing new one each time.
But let's go by those in the first article: an ISIS commander said that most of the fighters came from the turkish border. So ? The vast majority of the people crossing those borders were going to join the various rebels groups in Syria, first and foremost FSA. At this time, ISIS was not a big thing.

The declaration of Kemal Kili├ždaroglu (president of CHP, main opposition of Erdogan) speak of "terror groups". Not ISIS. For a lot of people, especially secular-minded turk and arabs elites, all opposition to Assad is "terrorists". So no ISIS again.

Others elements includes some recording a prominent twitter user said he have listened. Ok.

The rest is a serie of allegations, by people as neutral as YPG commander in Kobane. And the article end with:

Author’s Note: Information presented in this paper is offered without bias or endorsement.

So it's a recollection of all element that could indicate a cooperation between ISIS and Turkey. You could do an even more lenghty article about all the element that indicate that Turkey and ISIS are in open conflict. Starting with ISIS calling Turkey "an apostate state" and Erdogan "an apostate leader" since day one and the constant attack of the Turkish National Army against ISIS since 2014.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 05-17-2017 at 06:42 AM.
Ploid 3.0
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(05-17-2017, 06:46 AM)
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I would consider this a act of war in Civilization. I don't have the Trump DLC/Mod though.
kirby_fox
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(05-17-2017, 07:02 AM)
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Disgusting. Didn't even see anything about this until now but I do hope it gets reported on and these people are never allowed here again. I don't expect condemnation.

They were lucky no one was armed.
BrassDragon
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(05-17-2017, 07:09 AM)
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When these Turkish security goons showed up in Rotterdam, we put our version of SWAT on them without hesitation. They weren't so tough then.
Banglish
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(05-17-2017, 07:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by KevinRo

Makes me sick. I don't understand why there isn't a bigger outrage. Physically attacking American citizens while on a political mission should never go unpunished.

Well first of all they aren't white americans soo.. probably not as big a deal eh.
Funyarinpa
Member
(05-17-2017, 07:46 AM)
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As a Turk (living in Turkey) this shit fucking enrages me. The sheer bigotry, pride, and ignorance!

Edit: Thread derail but comparing Ataturk to Hitler in any capacity? Hahahahhahahahaha NO.

I see where you're coming from with regards to oppression of minorities and I agree to an extent, but Ataturk's contributions to the social progress of the whole country is undeniable.
Last edited by Funyarinpa; 05-17-2017 at 07:53 AM.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
(05-17-2017, 09:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by BrassDragon

When these Turkish security goons showed up in Rotterdam, we put our version of SWAT on them without hesitation. They weren't so tough then.

Seems like the only logical way to handle these 'visits'.
hEist
Member
(05-17-2017, 09:27 AM)
disgusting. effing disgusting.
Tence
(05-17-2017, 09:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by Allforce

This fucking goon has a sidearm too. These are all government representatives from Turkey out there beating up US citizens outside on Embassy Row. Watch the video, the cop hits this guy in the back with his baton and he turns around ready to fight. You can see several cops get assaulted too by these guys in the melee, all they have to do is walk right back inside the gates and they're on Turkish soil and not responsible for shit.

It is not Turkish soil. If that was true, a country would never have the right to send an ambassador home...and that is something that happens a lot.

However they do have a certain diplomatic immunity, so it is fucking hard to do anything once they are back at the embassy.
Carn82
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(05-17-2017, 09:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by BrassDragon

When these Turkish security goons showed up in Rotterdam, we put our version of SWAT on them without hesitation. They weren't so tough then.

Thats the 'oproerpolitie' (riot control) .. our version of SWAT would be more like AT (arrestatieteam) or one of the other DSI groups (dienst speciale interventie). But big chance some of those were present as well, hehe.
Shiggy
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(05-17-2017, 09:47 AM)
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Sounds like Erdogan, he is showing his true face in every country now.
BrassDragon
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(05-17-2017, 09:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Carn82

Thats the 'oproerpolitie' (riot control) .. our version of SWAT would be more like AT (arrestatieteam) or one of the other DSI groups (dienst speciale interventie). But big chance some of those were present as well, hehe.

I work there. It was AT.
Carn82
Member
(05-17-2017, 09:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by BrassDragon

I work there. It was AT.

Wasnt clear from the article, hence my comment. But makes sense!
Xando
Member
(05-17-2017, 09:58 AM)
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Looks like what his supporters do all over europe
chromatic9
Member
(05-17-2017, 10:08 AM)
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A woman being kicked and punched on the ground by what looks like three men. Disgusting.

Cops should be having some these goons on the ground and using the footage to id for further repercussions.
sechsterangriff
Member
(05-17-2017, 10:31 AM)
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How is this is allowed to happen?
spekkeh
(05-17-2017, 10:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by BrassDragon

When these Turkish security goons showed up in Rotterdam, we put our version of SWAT on them without hesitation. They weren't so tough then.

Heh yeah the article shows the riot police cracking down on the Erdogan sympathizers. But the SWAT arrested their goons.


(that's a Turkish cabinet member with her goons sent to stir shit in the country)

One of the few times I've seen police overuse of force get warm approval from even the left wing opposition.
jelly
Member
(05-17-2017, 10:34 AM)
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Who invited him anyway. Shameful.

May in the UK even visited him in Turkey after she won the Tory leadership. Pure scum.
Easy_D
never left the stone age
(05-17-2017, 10:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Lactose_Intolerant

I love how the police do nothing about the guys kicking people on the ground or going after the ones already in police custody.

They're actually separating them and pushing them back when they come running to punch protesters though? At least they start doing so in the later half of the video.
Fucked up situation all around though, didn't look like the protesters were violent apart from self-defence
Frankfurter
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(05-17-2017, 10:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by NiiloPielinen

Diplomatic immunity.

Why would this matter with an ongoing attack? Surely you would have the right to say stop a person (with diplomatic immunity) that is about to shoot another person right in front of you.
Jackpot
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(05-17-2017, 11:08 AM)
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Don't feed the pigeon, he makes a living defending Turkey.

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

We have far more authoritarian regime in the EU right now than Erdogan, look at Hungary, and it don't have half of the bad press.

http://neogaf.site/forum/showpost...9&postcount=49

Originally Posted by Incarmine

Since I know nothing about Turkish or Kurd politics, what if those protesters were white supremacists/Neo Nazis? And a group of Israeli bodyguards started attacking them? Honestly, I'm hard-pressed to sympathize. From my view, their ideas are hurting me more than the attackers are hurting them. Also the election cycle and these few months of the Trump presidency have greatly weakened my faith in humanity, so yeah I might have shed some of my compassion for other people.

You don't know anything so you're going to project a completely random scenario onto the footage and derail the thread? Great job.
Turbo Killer
Member
(05-17-2017, 11:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by Incarmine

I would argue against there being zero tolerance for white supremacists in this country, since we elected a president who ran a campaign with said ideology as one of its pillars, however much he and his supporters might claim otherwise.

And I know little about the group that the protesters are representing.

However, you are probably absolutely right about me. In my point of view, a physically vulnerable person with a destructive idea is infinitely more dangerous than an armed thug. That idea can spread and wreak much more havoc on a society than any gun or bomb can. Look at all the frail, elderly men in the Republican party that any of us can probably beat up any day of the week, and how much damage they are doing to this country with their ideas.

Since I know nothing about Turkish or Kurd politics, what if those protesters were white supremacists/Neo Nazis? And a group of Israeli bodyguards started attacking them? Honestly, I'm hard-pressed to sympathize. From my view, their ideas are hurting me more than the attackers are hurting them. Also the election cycle and these few months of the Trump presidency have greatly weakened my faith in humanity, so yeah I might have shed some of my compassion for other people.

The anime avatar just gives it away, we know what you represent.
Simplet
Member
(05-17-2017, 11:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

YPG no, PKK yes. Just make a google search about the PKK-YPG link and relationship.

You sound really confused about the whole situation. The YPG and the PKK are not at all the same organisation, especially from an american point of view. The YPG is the US's main ally against the islamic state in Syria, to the point where they provide them with aerial support and have been arming them more or less secretely, and have considered open support (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...ming-the-kurds)

On the other hand, the US considers the PKK a terrorist organisation like you said.

The YPG and the PKK are both kurds, and they almost certainly have contacts at different levels, but you simply can't equate the two, that's like saying using a Fatah symbol means support for Hamas and jihadist terrorism.
WordsintheWater
Member
(05-17-2017, 01:04 PM)
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Absolutely disgusting and just a general rule of thumb, when you come into a thread and say "I'm not defending, but" you are freaking defending.

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