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jdstorm
Member
(05-20-2017, 03:49 AM)

Originally Posted by phanphare

37 minutes, 10 points, 2 for 11 from the field, 2 for 9 from 3, 6 turnovers, -28 +/- in an elimination game

that will follow harden until he does something in the playoffs to wash it away

Thats a single game. A sample size thats statistically unreliable.

Originally Posted by jman2050

This is what happens when you try to analyze basketball like you would baseball.

I'm not analysing basketball like baseball. I am asking that we use facts as the basis of any discussion. There is a lot of grey area's in combining stats especially combined with watching the game. However some things are easier to prove then others. IE Westbrook scored the most points this year. Saying that anyone else scored more points is factually incorrect.

Originally Posted by mjp2417

You're embarrassing yourself right now.

Wouldnt be the first time. However i fail to see how not acknowledging Lebron as "the greatest basketball player on the planet" is hating or embarasing. Is it so bad to be top 5?
Dion Blaster
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(05-20-2017, 03:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Wouldnt be the first time. However i fail to see how not acknowledging Lebron as "the greatest basketball player on the planet" is hating or embarasing. Is it so bad to be top 5?

Because he proves it every year in the playoffs. The only time it's been in doubt was last year after Curry's mind-boggling season, but LeBron dispatched that notion in the finals. As it stands now only Curry, Kawhi, and Durant are even close.
Phox
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(05-20-2017, 03:56 AM)
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Because he's not the mvp? OP I bet you're the guy who thinks Trout should win mvp every year in baseball too
Exploratory
is not Kawhi Leonard
(05-20-2017, 03:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Duo

Always hated how MVP voting is full of edgelords who don't want to pick the same guy every year.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news...i1qofdjjr1uqem

It's a regular season award. I always hated when people couldn't understand that.
Nastrodamous
Member
(05-20-2017, 03:59 AM)

Originally Posted by Dion Blaster

Because he proves it every year in the playoffs. The only time it's been in doubt was last year after Curry's mind-boggling season, but LeBron dispatched that notion in the finals. As it stands now only Curry, Kawhi, and Durant are even close.

Curry isn't anywhere near LeBron. come on dude.
friskykillface
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:01 AM)
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Regular season MVP
LeBron coasted x rested through the season

Like Mannings mvps , doesn't mean shit in the post season
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
(05-20-2017, 04:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nastrodamous

Curry isn't anywhere near LeBron. come on dude.

Are you not watching the playoffs? If you don't question Kawhi or KD I don't know how you could Curry.
Last edited by -tetsuo-; 05-20-2017 at 04:10 AM.
PanSexual_Peacock
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 04:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by bionic77

Shaq, Duncan and Kobe all won only 1 MVP.

Steve Nash won two.

This is not an award that anyone should take seriously.

Duncan actually won two
jdstorm
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:15 AM)

Originally Posted by Dion Blaster

Because he proves it every year in the playoffs. The only time it's been in doubt was last year after Curry's mind-boggling season, but LeBron dispatched that notion in the finals. As it stands now only Curry, Kawhi, and Durant are even close.

Does He? Lebron has a 3-4 Career Finals record. Thats sub .500 and not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Now lets talk about last season. The Cavs were trailing GSW 3-1 before Bogut got hurt. Its probably not a coincidence that Cleveland won 3 games straight after GSW lost their best rim protector.
Last edited by jdstorm; 05-20-2017 at 04:17 AM.
mjp2417
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(05-20-2017, 04:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Wouldnt be the first time. However i fail to see how not acknowledging Lebron as "the greatest basketball player on the planet" is hating or embarasing. Is it so bad to be top 5?

LeBron James did not have the best regular season in the NBA this year therefore LeBron James does not deserve to be regular season MVP of the NBA. LeBron James probably doesn't deserve to be one of the 3 Finalists for MVP this year (this would, of course, change if there were 4 Finalists). I actually think the voters got it right!

LeBron James is still the best player in the NBA because no one, especially LeBron James, cares all that much about the regular season. Here are LeBron James' playoff stats this year: http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamel...6/lebron-james. Feel free to post a more impressive statline. Oh, and his team is now 10-0.

Who had the best regular season and who is the best player are two very different arguments that you've conflated.
yuraya
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(05-20-2017, 04:18 AM)
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He constantly bitched and moaned about resting etc. And he threw his teammates under the bus when they played like shit. He cried about getting help because he knew he has no shot against the Warriors. So they went out and got Williams/Korver so Lebron he could stop Q_Qn. It was an embarrassingly bad year for him and one of the few years he doesn't belong in the conversation. The other 3 guys deserve it much more.
Shamrock7r
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(05-20-2017, 04:19 AM)
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Kawhi Leonard should be the mvp this year. Only All -Star on his team, lost an all time great teammate in Duncan, and took the Spurs to 60+wins with elite offense and defense.

Award is going to Harden though
jdstorm
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:20 AM)
Im not conflating anything.

Lebron is neither the best player in the NBA or the MVP. This season it was unquestionably Westbrook.

Also you know what other players who dont try in the regular season are called? Low Motor players. If Lebron cant get it up every game he isnt the best player. Its pretty simple.

Edit. Lebron averaging 26/8/8 isnt that impressive when Westbrook is averaging 30/10/10 and Harden is averaging 29/8/11.
Last edited by jdstorm; 05-20-2017 at 04:24 AM.
MidnightCowboy
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(05-20-2017, 04:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Im not conflating anything.

Lebron is neither the best player in the NBA or the MVP. This season it was unquestionably Westbrook.

Also you know what other players who dont try in the regular season are called? Low Motor players. If Lebron cant get it up every game he isnt the best player. Its pretty simple.

The only thing that is simple is that LeBron is the best player on the planet. If you can't see that, that's on you. It's not subjective. He's quite simply the best. He gives you a better chance to win than any other single player.
Lebron
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(05-20-2017, 04:26 AM)
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But dat Finals MVP doe
jdstorm
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:27 AM)

Originally Posted by MidnightCowboy

The only thing that is simple is that LeBron is the best player on the planet. If you can't see that, that's on you. It's not subjective. He's quite simply the best. He gives you a better chance to win than any other single player.

Then prove it. Where is the evidence that supports your statement.

Kevin Durant led the NBA in WS/48 this season. So logically Durant would be the player who gives your team the best chance to win this season.
jman2050
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(05-20-2017, 04:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Then prove it. Where is the evidence that supports your statement.

Kevin Durant led the NBA in WS/48 this season. So logically Durant would be the player who gives your team the best chance to win this season.

I repeat

This is what happens when you try to analyze basketball like you would baseball.
phanphare
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(05-20-2017, 04:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Thats a single game. A sample size thats statistically unreliable

it is a single game. single games tend to matter more in the playoffs, for obvious reasons, especially elimination games.

lebron knows this as well, that's how he can be the best player in the league without having to put up the best stats in the regular season and have it go wholly undisputed by any reasonable person watching the sport.
mjp2417
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(05-20-2017, 04:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Then prove it. Where is the evidence that supports your statement.

Kevin Durant led the NBA in WS/48 this season. So logically Durant would be the player who gives your team the best chance to win this season.

Kevin Durant missed 20 games this year. LeBron James missed 8 games this year. Check the respective team records during those games. This isn't hard.
MidnightCowboy
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(05-20-2017, 04:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Then prove it. Where is the evidence that supports your statement.

Kevin Durant led the NBA in WS/48 this season. So logically Durant would be the player who gives your team the best chance to win this season.

Because LeBron wasn't trying and still had a top 5 season. When he tries it's game over, as the playoffs are showing.

Numbers aren't everything. It's possible to be too logical. You're either overthinking it or you're a hater. Just sit back and watch greatness.
Shamrock7r
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(05-20-2017, 04:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by phanphare

it is a single game. single games tend to matter more in the playoffs, for obvious reasons, especially elimination games.

lebron knows this as well, that's how he can be the best player in the league without having to put up the best stats in the regular season and have it go wholly undisputed by any reasonable person watching the sport.

Yep. Harden is a fraud. I don't imagine a team will win a championship with him as the best player because his offensive style and lack of defensive play doesn't translate well to post season success
Hyperactivity
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(05-20-2017, 04:32 AM)
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LeBron has legitimate reason to win in 2011, and 2014, and maybe 2015 had he not missed that stretch of games. 2011 is the only really bad snub.

Everything else, well mvp is a regular season award

It's like saying early 2000s shaq wasn't always mvp, despite being one of the most dominant players in that stretch of all time
mjp2417
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(05-20-2017, 04:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by jman2050

I repeat

This is what happens when you try to analyze basketball like you would baseball.

Pretty much
ahoyle77
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:34 AM)

Originally Posted by Stat Flow

I think the only year LeBron definitely didn't deserve MVP was last year when Curry went absolutely nuts...and MAYBE Westbrook this year.

Crazy how newer NBA fans try to put LeBron ahead of Jordan. I get that if you've never seen Jordan you may not get it, but Jordan was an absolute basketball god.

As a life long Tar Heel fan that somewhat remembers the 82 Championship, I loved Jordan as a player. If LeBron quits today, I would rank him 2. If he continues at an All NBA first team level and gets 1 more ring, I rank LeBron 1st. I hate the dismissive attitude people get about this how no one can surpass Jordan.
MidnightCowboy
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(05-20-2017, 04:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hyperactivity

LeBron has legitimate reason to win in 2011, and 2014, and maybe 2015 had he not missed that stretch of games. 2011 is the only really bad snub.

Everything else, well mvp is a regular season award

2011 is the only stain on his career. Every time he's lost besides that was to the better team. 2015 is for sure a question mark though because of the injuries.
Hyperactivity
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(05-20-2017, 04:35 AM)
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Also, harden didn't show up that one game, but he did damn well otherwise. Want elimination games? 2015 games 4 and 5. And that entire warriors series, asides from the last game
phanphare
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(05-20-2017, 04:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Then prove it. Where is the evidence that supports your statement.

oh I don't know, look at lebron's numbers in the playoffs every year. maybe watch him play in some of the games. consider the last time he's missed the finals. consider how many of those seasons he led every stat category in the regular season. you know, the usual stuff.
Madness
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(05-20-2017, 04:35 AM)
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MVP doesn't mean he isn't the best player hands down in the NBA. The perfomance he is putting in these playoffs, coupled with what he achieved last season. He is on his way to 7 straight NBA finals. Think about that. This man single handedly carries his teams each years to the championships, win or lose.

This man will retire as the GOAT. As someone who grew up watching MJ, this is just insane.
Elfforkusu
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(05-20-2017, 04:36 AM)
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Just like MJ, he's not going to win MVPs even when he's the MVP.
Hyperactivity
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(05-20-2017, 04:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by MidnightCowboy

2011 is the only stain on his career. Every time he's lost it was to the better team. 2015 is for sure a question mark though because of the injuries.

I meant mvp, but yeah. Well, there was the 2010 delonte west game, but yeah. 2011 and Dirk, before LeBron, bosh, etc. went heavily to small ball, is the main stain against him

That 2015 cavs team, looking back, probably wins it, but if my cat barked it would be a dog, no johns
Dreams-Visions
I'm mad as hell but this sandwich is delicious
(05-20-2017, 04:39 AM)
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LeBron is the MVP every year.

There needs to be a Player of The Year award that is a bit different. Russ was clearly the player of the year. But most valuable? Clearly that's LeBron.
jdstorm
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:41 AM)

Originally Posted by jman2050

I repeat

This is what happens when you try to analyze basketball like you would baseball.

I would love to talk about basketball like basketball. However until a baseline is set for discussing what is actually happening on the court (usually measured by statistics) a reasonable basketball conversation cant take place.

Originally Posted by phanphare

it is a single game. single games tend to matter more in the playoffs, for obvious reasons, especially elimination games.

lebron knows this as well, that's how he can be the best player in the league without having to put up the best stats in the regular season and have it go wholly undisputed by any reasonable person watching the sport.

So Lebron is the best player because he doesnt try and if he did he would be the greatest? Thats not a very coherent arguement. There is no way to measure this, and typically players who give a lack of effort are seen as inferior. So why doesnt this taint Lebron like it does with other players.

Originally Posted by mjp2417

Kevin Durant missed 20 games this year. LeBron James missed 8 games this year. Check the respective team records during those games. This isn't hard.

Why should I do that? WS/48 is an individual metric that seeks to determine a players individual importance. Correlation and causation are two very different things. GSW being a better team then Cleveland without Lebron doesnt tell you anything useful about either player as an individual. At most it says the Lebron is better then his backup by a greater margin then Durant is better then his own backup.
Shamrock7r
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(05-20-2017, 04:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

I would love to talk about basketball like basketball. However until a baseline is set for discussing what is actually happening on the court (usually measured by statistics) a reasonable basketball conversation cant take place.



So Lebron is the best player because he doesnt try and if he did he would be the greatest? Thats not a very coherent arguement. There is no way to measure this, and typically players who give a lack of effort are seen as inferior. So why doesnt this taint Lebron like it does with other players.



Why should I do that? WS/48 is an individual metric that seeks to determine a players individual importance. Correlation and causation are two very different things. GSW being a better team then Cleveland without Lebron doesnt tell you anything useful about either player as an individual. At most it says the Lebron is better then his backup by a greater margin then Durant is better then his own backup.

Baseball has always lended itself to being tracked, stat wise.

There are a lot of variables to Basketball that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. Defensive stats, for example, are widely understood as not being a great overall indicator of defensive play in Basketball.
Servbot24
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(05-20-2017, 04:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dreams-Visions

LeBron is the MVP every year.

There needs to be a Player of The Year award that is a bit different. Russ was clearly the player of the year. But most valuable? Clearly that's LeBron.

The most valuable player on the court is the guy who goes all out
phanphare
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(05-20-2017, 04:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

So Lebron is the best player because he doesnt try and if he did he would be the greatest?

no, that's a silly thing to say

That's not a very coherent argument.

it is not. I didn't argue it, however, so there's that.

There is no way to measure this, and typically players who give a lack of effort are seen as inferior.

what does that have to do with Lebron?

So why doesnt this taint Lebron like it does with other players.

other players aren't Lebron? other players don't go deep in the playoffs year in and year out like clockwork while playing like Lebron? might help if you name some of these other players so we can see how not-Lebron-like they are
Mortemis
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(05-20-2017, 04:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Shamrock7r

Baseball has always lended itself to being tracked, stat wise.

There are a lot of variables to Basketball that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. Defensive stats, for example, are widely understood as not being a great overall indicator of defensive play in Basketball.

To be fair, defense stats in baseball are known to be not too accurate in assessing defensive talent, seeing as the different ones vary. At least the stats that are publicly available to us.

But yes, in baseball the essence of it happens in a finite, easily understood way, regarding the pitch and the position player's action. In basketball there is a whole lot of variables that come into play that make advanced stats not as valuable. I'm still a big fan of them, and they are still improving, but it's something to take into consideration.

Frankly, someone trying to argue that Lebron isn't the best player and that there's five or more guys that are just as good hurts my head.
Shamrock7r
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(05-20-2017, 04:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mortemis

To be fair, defense stats in baseball are known to be not too accurate in assessing defensive talent, seeing as the different ones vary. At least the stats that are publicly available to us.

But yes, in baseball the essence of it happens in a finite, easily understood way, regarding the pitch and the position player's action. In basketball there is a whole lot of variables that come into play that make advanced stats not as valuable. I'm still a big fan of them, and they are still improving, but it's something to take into consideration.

Frankly, someone trying to argue that Lebron isn't the best player and that there's five or more guys that are just as good hurts my head.

I agree and what is tracked in Basketball helps a lot in understanding how good a player is, you just have to approach it as part of the argument, but not the whole story. I wish more stats were covered, like hockey assists, and more defensive stats were emphasized.

No doubt, Lebron is on his own tier.
mjp2417
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(05-20-2017, 04:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by Servbot24

The most valuable player on the court is the guy who goes all out



Delly the goat
jman2050
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(05-20-2017, 04:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by MidnightCowboy

2011 is the only stain on his career. Every time he's lost besides that was to the better team. 2015 is for sure a question mark though because of the injuries.

I mean this kind of says it all. Nobody cares that Lebron was very likely the best regular season player in 2011 (he was). He failed miserably, on his own terms, in the games that actually mattered. He is rightly criticized for what went down that season.
Trey
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:01 AM)

Originally Posted by Dreams-Visions

LeBron is the MVP every year.

There needs to be a Player of The Year award that is a bit different. Russ was clearly the player of the year. But most valuable? Clearly that's LeBron.

No there doesn't. MVP works as necessary: celebrating the best individual season in the NBA. LeBron has all star accolades, first team NBA honors, and MVP ballots every year to furnish the claim that he's the best player on the planet, but that's not what the MVP award is.

Just like how the Warriors were the best team in the NBA last season, but they don't get the Larry O'Brien for that.
jman2050
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(05-20-2017, 05:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

I would love to talk about basketball like basketball. However until a baseline is set for discussing what is actually happening on the court (usually measured by statistics) a reasonable basketball conversation cant take place.

Statistics are one component of it but those statistics need to be contextualized. In the context of determining the regular season MVP, fine, go nuts with your statistical arguments. I'm certainly not going to argue that Lebron is deserves the MVP, or even top-3 consideration. Though I am amused that you state Westbrook is the best player this year even though advanced stats hate his season, but that's another discussion.

But I would hesitate to use those stats when trying to definitively say Lebron isn't clearly the best player in the league. Because that's an entirely different question that follows an entirely different set of criteria. Maybe in baseball, where the relatively low amount of opportunities to influence the game, the lack of playoff spots, and the nature of the sport where there's no clock and the ability to comeback is always in play means that baseball players must put forth max effort all the time. At least there, regular season stats DO matter.

So Lebron is the best player because he doesnt try and if he did he would be the greatest? Thats not a very coherent arguement. There is no way to measure this, and typically players who give a lack of effort are seen as inferior. So why doesnt this taint Lebron like it does with other players.

No, players who give a lack of effort in the playoffs are seen as inferior. Nobody gives a crap if Lebron checks out on defense in some random 3rd quarter possession of some mid-March game against the Magic or whatever because he's coasting.
Dion Blaster
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(05-20-2017, 05:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Nastrodamous

Curry isn't anywhere near LeBron. come on dude.

Those two and Kawhi are top 3 in almost every advanced stat this postseason. It's pretty clear the top 4 is them and Durant. How far above them Lebron resides is just splitting hairs.

Originally Posted by jdstorm

Does He? Lebron has a 3-4 Career Finals record. Thats sub .500 and not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Now lets talk about last season. The Cavs were trailing GSW 3-1 before Bogut got hurt. Its probably not a coincidence that Cleveland won 3 games straight after GSW lost their best rim protector.

Seriously? Playoff performance cannot be reduced to finals record. This ignores the insane performances he puts up even in losses, and ignores his complete dominance of teams in the first three rounds.
mjp2417
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(05-20-2017, 05:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by jdstorm

Why should I do that? WS/48 is an individual metric that seeks to determine a players individual importance. Correlation and causation are two very different things. GSW being a better team then Cleveland without Lebron doesnt tell you anything useful about either player as an individual. At most it says the Lebron is better then his backup by a greater margin then Durant is better then his own backup.

Win shares aren't WAR. You're conflating baseball with basketball. Again. Like, you started out by arguing that DeMarcus Cousins was as good as LeBron. You pretty clearly don't know what you're talking about and are googling around for context-free stats when you clearly don't understand what they actually tell you. Basketball isn't baseball because basketball is:
(a) a true team sport, unlike baseball, which is largely a series of individual encounters masquerading as a team sport
(b) a sport in which the regular season is a relative formality because every team that doesn't completely suck makes the playoffs
(c) a consistently physically taxing sport that incentivizes players to conserve energy and minimize wear-and-tear in the regular season because of (b)

You would understand that LeBron James is an exponentially better basketball player than DeMarcus Cousins if you had ever watched a basketball game or understood the sport beyond a surface level of who had the most ppg. in the regular season or whatever.
TheBaldEmperor
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(05-20-2017, 05:17 AM)
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The fact that Shaquille freaking O'Neal has only one of these should tell you tell you this award is largely garbage.
Werd
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(05-20-2017, 05:26 AM)

Originally Posted by jdstorm

Does He? Lebron has a 3-4 Career Finals record. Thats sub .500 and not exactly a ringing endorsement.

This argument has always bothered me. It suggests losing in the ECF (or worse) a couple times would have somehow improved his legacy. Losing in the finals is the second best result possible for an NBA player, and as has already been stated 2011 is the only one of those losses that has any real weight.

LeBron's playoff record and personal performance in them is absolutely a ringing endorsement and dwarfs the other players on your list.

Originally Posted by jdstorm



So Lebron is the best player because he doesnt try and if he did he would be the greatest? Thats not a very coherent arguement. There is no way to measure this, and typically players who give a lack of effort are seen as inferior. So why doesnt this taint Lebron like it does with other players.

Context? This is the reigning NBA Finals MVP in his 14th NBA season with near 200 playoff games thrown on top, not early 20s Harden giving zero effort on defense.

All that said, I have no issue with LeBron being outside the top 3 for the regular season MVP award this year.
Last edited by Werd; 05-20-2017 at 05:30 AM.
ForsakenLotus
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(05-20-2017, 05:27 AM)
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There is no legitimate argument for LeBron being MVP this season. Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi all had MVP caliber seasons that surpass everybody else. Isiah Thomas also has a better resume.
friskykillface
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(05-20-2017, 05:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by mjp2417



Delly the goat

Championships won in Cleveland with Delly 🐐 - 1
Championships won in Cleveland without Delly 🐐 - ?
jman2050
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(05-20-2017, 05:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by ForsakenLotus

There is no legitimate argument for LeBron being MVP this season. Westbrook, Harden and Kawhi all had MVP caliber seasons that surpass everybody else. Isiah Thomas also has a better resume.

ForsakenLotus
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(05-20-2017, 05:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by jman2050

Boston is a clearly inferior team to the Cavs, yet despite that Boston was still the number 1 seed in the East. He also is the only All-Star player on his team, whereas the Cavs have three including LeBron James. And most importantly, Isiah Thomas put up ridiculous 4th quarter scoring stats on a team that desperately needed it.

So yes, I think Isiah Thomas has a stronger case for MVP than LeBron James does this year.
jdstorm
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:52 AM)

Originally Posted by Shamrock7r

Baseball has always lended itself to being tracked, stat wise.

There are a lot of variables to Basketball that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. Defensive stats, for example, are widely understood as not being a great overall indicator of defensive play in Basketball.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Shamrock7r

I agree and what is tracked in Basketball helps a lot in understanding how good a player is, you just have to approach it as part of the argument, but not the whole story. I wish more stats were covered, like hockey assists, and more defensive stats were emphasized.

No doubt, Lebron is on his own tier.

Also agree expecpt for the lebron in his own tier. That may have been true in the past but that doesnt make it true this past season.

Originally Posted by Dion Blaster

Those two and Kawhi are top 3 in almost every advanced stat this postseason. It's pretty clear the top 4 is them and Durant. How far above them Lebron resides is just splitting hairs.



Seriously? Playoff performance cannot be reduced to finals record. This ignores the insane performances he puts up even in losses, and ignores his complete dominance of teams in the first three rounds.

That line was in response to others using win loss record as a reasonable test for a players quality. By their own reasonable standards lebron failed the test. There are clearly much better ways to test if lebron has peformed well.

As for his dominance in the early rounds. The east is anecdotally seen as a lesser conference for a reason. Strength of schedule is an important factor to consider when assesing Lebron's early round dominance.

Case in point. These playoffs James Harden spent the first 2 rounds mostly being defended by Kawhi Leonard and Andre Roberson. Lebrons primary defensive matchups beyond the first round series vs the Pacers where he was matched up with Paul George are significantly worse then those 2 players.

Originally Posted by jman2050

Statistics are one component of it but those statistics need to be contextualized. In the context of determining the regular season MVP, fine, go nuts with your statistical arguments. I'm certainly not going to argue that Lebron is deserves the MVP, or even top-3 consideration. Though I am amused that you state Westbrook is the best player this year even though advanced stats hate his season, but that's another discussion.

But I would hesitate to use those stats when trying to definitively say Lebron isn't clearly the best player in the league. Because that's an entirely different question that follows an entirely different set of criteria. Maybe in baseball, where the relatively low amount of opportunities to influence the game, the lack of playoff spots, and the nature of the sport where there's no clock and the ability to comeback is always in play means that baseball players must put forth max effort all the time. At least there, regular season stats DO matter.



No, players who give a lack of effort in the playoffs are seen as inferior. Nobody gives a crap if Lebron checks out on defense in some random 3rd quarter possession of some mid-March game against the Magic or whatever because he's coasting.

Statistics are only part of the picture, but they are a reasonably accurate measure of what is happening. Obviously they are much less reliable then baseball. However they are worth discussing as the best availiable evidence.

Originally Posted by mjp2417

Win shares aren't WAR. You're conflating baseball with basketball. Again. Like, you started out by arguing that DeMarcus Cousins was as good as LeBron. You pretty clearly don't know what you're talking about and are googling around for context-free stats when you clearly don't understand what they actually tell you. Basketball isn't baseball because basketball is:
(a) a true team sport, unlike baseball, which is largely a series of individual encounters masquerading as a team sport
(b) a sport in which the regular season is a relative formality because every team that doesn't completely suck makes the playoffs
(c) a consistently physically taxing sport that incentivizes players to conserve energy and minimize wear-and-tear in the regular season because of (b)

You would understand that LeBron James is an exponentially better basketball player than DeMarcus Cousins if you had ever watched a basketball game or understood the sport beyond a surface level of who had the most ppg. in the regular season or whatever.

Boogie Cousins averaged close to 28/11/5 in Sacramento and overall averaged 27/11.1/4.6 for the season overall including shooting .360 from 3 on 5.1 attempts per game (Lebron shot .363 on 4.6 attempts) that is reasonably similar to Lebron's rounded average of 26/9/9. So its fair to say by production those players deserve to be in the same tier. Boogie was a better FT shooter.

This is especially true when you start to factor in role and positional varience. For instance bigs by their very nature typically rely on guards to help create for them while perimiter players find it easier to create their own shot. This is reversed defensively where Bigs typically cover for the mistakes of perimiter players. So lebron has a team built around him where he Drives/facilitates while Kyrie primarily drives and both have lots of space since they are surrounded by shooters.

Conversly Boogie played this season in Sacramento and New Orleans. Neither team has more then passable guard play. That inherently puts Boogie at a disagvantage in a direct comparison to Lebron.

Now Lebron is better then Boogie. However its pretty close and they definitely belong in the same sentance.

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