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ShadowSwordmaster
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(05-20-2017, 04:53 AM)
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The Center for American Progress (CAP) just released its coal-fired power generation data analysis concerning China and the United States. The research was intended to enhance understanding of trends in coal-fired power in both countries and provide data upon which to base the analysis.

The CAP team shared its key findings in a May 2017 issue brief titled “Everything You Think You Know About Coal in China Is Wrong,” and in it, they reveal that China is taking aggressive steps to address its coal emissions.

In the United States, coal-fired plants can shift to natural gas to lower emissions. However, that’s not really an option in China as natural gas is neither as plentiful nor as accessible. Therefore, China has to take a different path to clean energy.

That path begins with phasing out the worst coal-fired offenders. To that end, the nation is retiring older coal-fired power plants and replacing them with newer ones with lower emissions. It is also increasing transparency, providing citizens with emissions-related data and information, ensuring that the entire country remains invested in its energy efforts.

More in the link.
https://futurism.com/china-is-outpac...ing-emissions/
ZOONAMI
Member
(05-20-2017, 04:54 AM)
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Not surprising at all.
Do people really expect that the USA is somehow a front runner in those things?
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
(05-20-2017, 05:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by PdotMichael

Do people really expect that the USA is somehow a front runner in those things?

Idiots and the woefully uninformed do, yes.
turmoil
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by PdotMichael

Do people really expect that the USA is somehow a front runner in those things?

Obviously not with republican presidents and eternally deadlocked congress, but the public needs to be reminded of the problem as frequent as possible.
HisImperialMajesty
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 05:02 AM)
China is trying to become the world leader in renewable energy. It's committed $360 billion into renewable energy by 2020. Some of its efforts might be a little iffy (it's building a ridiculous amount of nuclear powerplants), while other efforts are really quite commendable. It's manufacturing muscle has made solar affordable around the world, for example.

Meanwhile, the orange cheeto man here in the US is trying set us back to unbridled cultivation of that old patriotic vegetable from the mountains, coal.
chillybright
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(05-20-2017, 05:02 AM)
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China kinda of has to. Smog is literally killing people every winter, regardless of your fortune or social status in China.
ShadowSwordmaster
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(05-20-2017, 05:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by HisImperialMajesty

China is trying to become the world leader in renewable energy. It's committed $360 billion into renewable energy by 2020. Some of its efforts might be a little iffy (it's building a ridiculous amount of nuclear powerplants), while other efforts are really quite commendable. It's manufacturing muscle has made solar affordable around the world, for example.

Meanwhile, the orange cheeto man here in the US is trying set us back to unbridled cultivation of that old patriotic vegetable from the mountains, coal.

Good news is that coal industry is closer to death and Trump is invertedly helping in it's demise.
HisImperialMajesty
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 05:12 AM)

Originally Posted by chillybright

China kinda of has to. Smog is literally killing people every winter, regardless of your fortune or social status in China.

I was in Shanghai this summer, and the smog was terrible. I got sick the first week I got there and my lungs were struggling the whole I was there.

It's a shame, because the city really is beautiful. The social pressure is really making it impossible for the government to ignore.
Kadey
Mrs. Harvey
(05-20-2017, 05:16 AM)
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Seems like China is outpacing U.S in everything these days. They are apparently working on new infrastructure that would make the U.S look like medieval times.
Jack The Nipper
Can outshoot and shutdown Steph Curry at the local YMCA.
(05-20-2017, 05:17 AM)
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The way Americans use power is different. Air, cooking etc

Not sure where it has changed so much
GameAddict411
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(05-20-2017, 05:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by HisImperialMajesty

China is trying to become the world leader in renewable energy. It's committed $360 billion into renewable energy by 2020. Some of its efforts might be a little iffy (it's building a ridiculous amount of nuclear powerplants), while other efforts are really quite commendable. It's manufacturing muscle has made solar affordable around the world, for example.

Meanwhile, the orange cheeto man here in the US is trying set us back to unbridled cultivation of that old patriotic vegetable from the mountains, coal.

Coal is dying weather GOP likes it or not. They are just supporting on face values just because they want people to vote them.
JaggedSac
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(05-20-2017, 05:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by chillybright

China kinda of has to. Smog is literally killing people every winter, regardless of your fortune or social status in China.

Yep. Populace is really pissed about it. Government has to do something. End result is good for everyone though.
Renekton
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(05-20-2017, 05:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by HisImperialMajesty

China is trying to become the world leader in renewable energy. It's committed $360 billion into renewable energy by 2020. Some of its efforts might be a little iffy (it's building a ridiculous amount of nuclear powerplants), while other efforts are really quite commendable. It's manufacturing muscle has made solar affordable around the world, for example.

Meanwhile, the orange cheeto man here in the US is trying set us back to unbridled cultivation of that old patriotic vegetable from the mountains, coal.

It makes sense for China to be more into it than USA because 1) Beijing is smogged up and 2) they are a manufacturing country with a bajillion people seeking jobs so they can put some into greentech

In terms of overall R&D tech though, China is hopelessly behind USA.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
(05-20-2017, 05:24 AM)
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If our smog and other pollution were as bad as China's, we'd have a fire under our ass too. We actually did sort of have our come to Jesus moment decades ago when smog alerts were more common in our urban areas, and a river in Ohio caught on fire.

We have lost some of that stream, IMO.
Shadow Puppetry
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(05-20-2017, 05:25 AM)
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HisImperialMajesty
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 05:27 AM)

Originally Posted by Kadey

Seems like China is outpacing U.S in everything these days. They are apparently working on new infrastructure that would make the U.S look like medieval times.

Can also confirm. Lujiazui in Shanghai is like something out of a scifi movie. I've also ridden the hi speed rail, and it's amazing how fast, smooth, and convenient it is. Even mobile connectivity, with integrated everything on Wechat (social media, messaging, payments, etc) makes going back to America, with separate apps for everything, seem outdated.
antonz
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(05-20-2017, 05:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kadey

Seems like China is outpacing U.S in everything these days. They are apparently working on new infrastructure that would make the U.S look like medieval times.

China is working hard to ensure their economic bubble does not burst and the best way they can slow it from happening is build like crazy. Fortunately for its citizens that is actually a positive thing for them.

In America we have a political party that thinks investing into infrastructure and the like is near criminal in nature.
Madness
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(05-20-2017, 05:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by chillybright

China kinda of has to. Smog is literally killing people every winter, regardless of your fortune or social status in China.

Sure, but they have also invested more money into renewable energy solutions than they did for their military. Can the US say the same. Americans and the West think they are the world leaders when it comes to this, but China is blazing past them. The sheer stupidity of the current US administration is that this is the next silicon valley industry. Solar panels, wind energy, geothermal, electric and autonomous vehicles, zero emission bullet trains, China is investing more than any othwr country.

What this means is as the US promises clean coal lol, in ten years, China will be years ahead. And when it comes time for India, Nigeria, Brazil, UAE, Qatar, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia and many other countries who need renewable energy solutions. Chinese companies will be better trained, better funded and will likely win the contracts over US and European ones.

Can you imagine if the CPC 15 years from now mandates all cars in inner Beijing and Shanghai and all taxies in the mainland have to be electric vehicles. How much of a sheer difference in air quality that could be. All while the US actually wants to roll back pressure on American car companies to cut into their billion dollar profits and keep lowering emissions. Tesla is the one bright spot for the US. But even Elon Musk was recently in China trying to secure funding, set up a solar cell plant, more supercharger highways etc.
Majine
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(05-20-2017, 05:29 AM)
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Looks like America got tired of winning.
Unknown Soldier
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(05-20-2017, 05:29 AM)
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China is also mandating that 16% of auto production and sales must be EV by 2020.

BYD is going to make a mint, and it's no wonder that Tesla is so keen on getting into China in a big way with a mandate like that.

Originally Posted by Madness

Sure, but they have also invested more money into renewable energy solutions than they did for their military. Can the US say the same. Americans and the West think they are the world leaders when it comes to this, but China is blazing past them. The sheer stupidity of the current US administration is that this is the next silicon valley industry. Solar panels, wind energy, geothermal, electric and autonomous vehicles, zero emission bullet trains, China is investing more than any othwr country.

What this means is as the US promises clean coal lol, in ten years, China will be years ahead. And when it comes time for India, Nigeria, Brazil, UAE, Qatar, Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia and many other countries who need renewable energy solutions. Chinese companies will be better trained, better funded and will likely win the contracts over US and European ones.

Can you imagine if the CPC 15 years from now mandates all cars in inner Beijing and Shanghai and all taxies in the mainland have to be electric vehicles. How much of a sheer difference in air quality that could be. All while the US actually wants to roll back pressure on American car companies to cut into their billion dollar profits and keep lowering emissions. Tesla is the one bright spot for the US. But even Elon Musk was recently in China trying to secure funding, set up a solar cell plant, more supercharger highways etc.

The American car companies are literally playing themselves. Several European countries are trying to mandate being EV-only by 2030. China is pushing ahead with their EV mandate. Ford, GM, and Chrysler are basically committing suicide in all overseas markets by pushing so hard against EV.

Meanwhile the Europeans are slowly coming around to the realization that they need to get on board or they are fucked. BMW, VW Group, and Volvo have all committed to having designed from the ground up EVs on the road by 2019/20, to coincide with the Chinese mandate. Meanwhile the only American company which is making EVs (Tesla) is busy being attacked on all fronts by the American car companies and the American dealerships and the UAW even though they are literally the only American car company actually doing something about this coming seismic shift.

In 20-30 years, Ford and GM might not even exist, Fiat may discontinue the entire Chrysler marque, and Tesla might be the only domestic car company in the US. That's a sobering thought, but the EV revolution is coming and when it happens it will be very sudden and the Europeans are trying to get ready but the Americans are basically trying to turn back the clock and that is literally not going to work.
Last edited by Unknown Soldier; 05-20-2017 at 05:39 AM.
wisdom0wl
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(05-20-2017, 05:33 AM)
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They need to at this point, but I wouldn't put it past them smelling blood in the water and going for the world leader in renewables status while the US is in a coma.
ssolitare
Member
(05-20-2017, 05:33 AM)
Oh well, we could have some of those things too if it wasn't for republicans.
HisImperialMajesty
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 05:38 AM)

Originally Posted by Renekton

It makes sense for China to be more into it than USA because 1) Beijing is smogged up and 2) they are a manufacturing country with a bajillion people seeking jobs so they can put some into greentech

In terms of overall R&D tech though, China is hopelessly behind USA.

Unfortunately, not true at all. China is now spending almost $100 billion on year in renewable energy, while America only spends around $40 billion, and that might track down with this new administration. It recently pledged $360 billion into renewable by 2020. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/05/w...nvestment.html)

China is already a leader in solar and wind manufacturing, driving down costs around the world. It's focusing on nuclear next.

Edit: Report from the UN Environmental Programme with the figures: http://fs-unep-centre.org/sites/defa...16lowres_0.pdf
Last edited by HisImperialMajesty; 05-20-2017 at 05:43 AM.
HoodWinked
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(05-20-2017, 05:38 AM)
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i dont know why people are shitting on the U.S. all it is basically saying is china's coal technology is marginally better than America's. people just read headlines with blinders on without realizing the context.

why would America continue to invest in improving coal when we have abundant natural gas and other forms of energy.
WaterAstro
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(05-20-2017, 05:41 AM)
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It's a good thing, but China's coal usage is insane, so lowering it by a bit will seem like a lot.

I wonder if there is some actual numbers of coal plants rather than that chart of "efficiency percentage". If China still has 10-20 times more coal plants running than US, then they still have a long way to go.
DonMigs85
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(05-20-2017, 05:42 AM)
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Makes you really wanna punch all the uneducated climate change denying hillbillies.
HisImperialMajesty
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 05:46 AM)

Originally Posted by WaterAstro

It's a good thing, but China's coal usage is insane, so lowering it by a bit will seem like a lot.

I wonder if there is some actual numbers of coal plants rather than that chart of "efficiency percentage". If China still has 10-20 times more coal plants running than US, then they still have a long way to go.

Doesn't the article have a chart showing American cumulative CO2 emissions from coal leading China's at 362 to 343 million metric tons per year?

Originally Posted by HisImperialMajesty

Doesn't the article have a chart showing American cumulative CO2 emissions from coal leading China's at 362 to 343 million metric tons per year?

The original source is about the top 100 coal plants, with China running circles around the American ones.

The joke is that with the declining and oursourced industry in the USA there is no reason why the USA should have such a large total and especially per capita CO2 output. Even worse with the big trading deficit the USA is running for decades it means that the stats are even skewed in their favour because China and other countries getting the CO2 emmisions counted for the annual iPhone update of the American population.
Last edited by PdotMichael; 05-20-2017 at 05:54 AM.
Angelus Errare
this looks like one of those Final Fantasy games lionhead always makes
(05-20-2017, 05:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by HoodWinked



i dont know why people are shitting on the U.S. all it is basically saying is china's coal technology is marginally better than America's. people just read headlines with blinders on without realizing the context.

why would America continue to invest in improving coal when we have abundant natural gas and other forms of energy.

Because a portion of America felt terrible for 75k coal workers (this is miners and administration) so they voted in some walking bag of bones and cancer who promised to bring that industry back.
HoodWinked
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(05-20-2017, 05:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Angelus Errare

Because a portion of America felt terrible for 75k coal workers (this is miners and administration) so they voted in some walking bag of bones and cancer who promised to bring that industry back.

what does this have to do with improving coal efficiency. you're reaching. coal industry has steadily been declining, all trump did was pander for votes to specific groups like every politician.
HisImperialMajesty
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 06:01 AM)

Originally Posted by HoodWinked

what does this have to do with improving coal efficiency. you're reaching. coal industry has steadily been declining, all trump did was pander for votes to specific groups like every politician.

The whole point of the article was that coal is not dying fast enough, and China is whooping our ass when it comes to either replacing coal with renewable energy or replacing old coal plants with more efficient, less polluting newer ones.
MisterFalcon
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(05-20-2017, 07:48 AM)
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There is a lot of statistical trickery being used here to produce the desired 'China's kicking America's ass in efficiency' headline. Looking at the source here

https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...l-china-wrong/

When the capacity of each of the top 100 units in each nation is taken into account, ultra-supercritical technology accounts for 92 percent of Chinese top 100 capacity and less than one percent—0.76 percent—of U.S. top 100 capacity. Because the technological makeup of the Chinese plants is different, their emissions levels are different as well. In the United States, the total nameplate capacity of our top 100 most efficient coal-fired power units is 80.1 gigawatts, and their cumulative annual carbon emissions amount to 361,924,475 metric tons.9 Meanwhile, the total nameplate capacity of China’s top 100 units is 82.6 gigawatts, and their cumulative annual carbon emissions are an estimated 342,586,908 metric tons.10 Since China’s fleet uses more advanced technology, it also consumes less coal: an average of 286.42 grams of coal equivalent, or gce, consumed per kilowatt-hour of power produced in China versus 374.96 gce consumed per kilowatt-hour produced at lower heating value in the United States.

Note how the Chinese number, despite being extremely precise is still labeled an estimate. But despite that look at that graph ! China # 1 !!!



But of course this is about a subset of the total. In this case 'the 100 most efficient coal plants' which will always mean China wins as they are building far more modern coal plants. All new plants in the US are natural gas ones. A picture to show how emissions and efficiency would look with all coal plants would look quite different and they themselves admit that:

To be sure, China still has plenty of older coal-fired power units that are not using the most advanced technology. According to the latest third-party research from S&P Global Platts, which provides research on global energy infrastructure, when the data set is expanded to include all operating coal-fired power capacity in China—which totals 920 gigawatts—approximately 19 percent uses ultra-supercritical technology, 25 percent uses supercritical technology, and 56 percent uses subcritical technology

By using a subset of the most efficient 100 out of the 920 none of the 515 subcritical plants are counted and despite only being 19 percent of the total they are now 90% of the subset. From what I can find in 2015 China used 4.3 billion tons of coal to generate 895 GWH of power while the US used 0.7 billion tons of coal to generate 1581 GWH. Which is an extremely different picture and I'm afraid something may be off in my calculations but I don't see where.

US power production: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/mont...cfm?t=epmt_1_1
US coal consumption: https://www.eia.gov/coal/annual/
Chinese power production: http://ceenews.info/en/power-statist...ed-generation/
Chinese coal consumption: http://www.stats.gov.cn/english/pres...9_1324019.html
Cow Mengde
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 08:51 AM)
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It helps that we don't have climate change deniers in our population and government.
Kthulhu
Member
(05-20-2017, 08:54 AM)
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Silly China. You just need to use clean coal like us Americans. Then all your problems will be solved! /s
Mr.Shrugglesツ
Junior Member
(05-20-2017, 08:55 AM)
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KillLaCam
Member
(05-20-2017, 09:00 AM)
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So I'm actually suprised about this one. Because some of those polluted cities in central China are insane. Unless that's not coal pollution. Either way I'm glad they're actually doing stuff about it

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