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FZZ
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(04-21-2017, 06:13 PM)
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Me
DOWN
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(04-21-2017, 06:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Duo

Only because he is the the Quran. Otherwise it's be Muhammad by a landslide.

Is your question historically important or famous? Big difference.

?? There's more christians than any other religious peoples
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by DukeSilverHaze

Adolph Hitler

Everything evil gets compared to him

Probably, yeah.

Originally Posted by Makonero

Jesus Christ.

Human history, not fiction.
Lister
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(04-21-2017, 06:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makonero

There's more evidence for Jesus existing than most people in history.

False.

However, i would say he is more likely to have existed than not. By a smidgen. Or at least someone named something like joshua bar joseph, who was an itenerant preacher and got into trouble with the local authorities and at least in part inspired what became the cristian cult. Not exactly the guy the bible deacribes (mirackes not withstanding).
Last edited by Lister; 04-21-2017 at 06:27 PM.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Makonero

There's more evidence for Jesus existing than most people in history.

There is about zero actual evidence for him ever having existed. There are a lot of stories about him, but that's true for Luke Skywalker as well.
Last edited by RoadHazard; 04-21-2017 at 06:24 PM.
Lovely Salsa
List of trash:
FTL
Chivalry
Shovel Knight
Divinity Original Sin
Broken Age
Kentucky Route Zero

I also dislike graphic novels, bus stops, maps, reading for kids, classical music, board games, opera, art, and geiger counters.
(04-21-2017, 06:22 PM)
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Correct me if Im wrong but jesus christ was first mentioned hundreds of years after he supposedly lived
heyf00L
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(04-21-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Gaf has more ancient near east history scholars than you'd think. You always surprise me, Gaf.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

Correct me if Im wrong but jesus christ was first mentioned hundreds of years after he supposedly lived

Yep. There are no contemporary accounts of him. Nobody who's written about him actually lived when he did (not).
Berto
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(04-21-2017, 06:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

Correct me if Im wrong but jesus christ was first mentioned hundreds of years after he supposedly lived

The earliest sources are after his life, yes, by roman historians. But I think its decades after, not centuries.
capitalCORN
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:27 PM)

Originally Posted by kswiston

I don't have to argue a majority since some awareness is all that is required to meet what we are talking about in this thread. You don't have to be Christian or Muslim to know of Jesus or Muhammad. Do you think that a significant number of adults have never heard of Christianity and Jesus in Pune?

My posts before yours happened:

Originally Posted by capitalCORN

You're all arguing the endemic instead of the pandemic. Middle Eastern history is not the totality of the world, if you didn't notice. There's vast swaths of world, who's experiences are shared and mutual, well beyond the current order of the world.



And you're willing to live with your preconceptions because you don't know, or accept better. There's words for each of those.

Edit: And if people are willing to say Jesus, I'lll say Bodhi Dharma

Originally Posted by capitalCORN

And how much more significant the number would it be than those who know Siddhartha Gautama (Aka, Buddha)? A man who shares history with the vast majority of Asia, and a name who the West shamelessly cop for their contortions.

m_shortpants
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(04-21-2017, 06:28 PM)
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Probably Jesus, because he has a prominent part in Islam too.
autumnleaf
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(04-21-2017, 06:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

There is about zero actual evidence for him ever having existed. There are a lot of stories about him, but that's true for Luke Skywalker as well.

There is more evidence than simply the stories in the Bible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...lived-and-died
Lovely Salsa
List of trash:
FTL
Chivalry
Shovel Knight
Divinity Original Sin
Broken Age
Kentucky Route Zero

I also dislike graphic novels, bus stops, maps, reading for kids, classical music, board games, opera, art, and geiger counters.
(04-21-2017, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Berto

The earliest sources are after his life, yes, by roman historians. But I think its decades after, not centuries.

You'd think such an important figure would be mentioned while he was alive, or atleast shortly after his death
bonesmccoy
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(04-21-2017, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Apzu

I think most people named jesus nowadays would be found in spanish or portuguese speaking countries.

Josh

Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

You'd think such an important figure would be mentioned while he was alive, or atleast shortly after his death

Good grief. Learn more.
Inferno313
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(04-21-2017, 06:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

Correct me if Im wrong but jesus christ was first mentioned hundreds of years after he supposedly lived

Nah, there are discovered writings from Christian sources about him that date to within ~25 years of his death. There are writings from non-christian sources that date to within ~60 or so years from his death.
I'm Spartacus
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(04-21-2017, 06:30 PM)
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15 pages and not one hint of a mention?


Though in all honesty, if we're discounting JC, it's probably Hitler
Hollywood Duo
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(04-21-2017, 06:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Yep. There are no contemporary accounts of him. Nobody who's written about him actually lived when he did (not).

Do you completely discount all oral traditions as a rule? The vast majority of the world was illiterate 2000 years ago.
kswiston
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(04-21-2017, 06:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

Correct me if Im wrong but jesus christ was first mentioned hundreds of years after he supposedly lived

Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Yep. There are no contemporary accounts of him. Nobody who's written about him actually lived when he did (not).

It's not correct. Nero started to persecute Christians about 30-35 years after the date that the Crucifixion took place. Given that the Christian movement is centered on Christ himself, any fabrication of him would have had to have been almost immediately after the timeline of the purported events of his life.
The One and Done™
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(04-21-2017, 06:33 PM)
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Jason Bourne
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Inferno313

Nah, there are discovered writings from Christian sources about him that date to within ~25 years of his death. There are writings from non-christian sources that date to within ~60 or so years from his death.

Still not very impressive. Why are there no CONTEMPORARY writings about this amazing magical sorcerer? Seems like it should have been a pretty big deal at the time.
Berto
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(04-21-2017, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

You'd think such an important figure would be mentioned while he was alive, or atleast shortly after his death

Yeah, but at the time he was not really an important figure, I mean, there were several guys that auto proclaimed themselves as messiah. The cult only gained popularity much later in time.

Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Still not very impressive. Why are there no CONTEMPORARY writings about this amazing magical sorcerer? Seems like it should have been a pretty big deal at the time.

There were a lot of "magical sorcerers" at the time and several messiahs, he was just one of them. Life of Brian parodies this quite well.
CrayToes
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(04-21-2017, 06:33 PM)
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It's Kanye West.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Duo

Do you completely discount all oral traditions as a rule? The vast majority of the world was illiterate 2000 years ago.

As evidence of anything? Yes. I don't believe in Thor and Odin either.
komplanen
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(04-21-2017, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by ForsakenLotus

Edit: I feel like we should limit it to people we factually know existed.

Jesus

EDIT: Oh shit now this is a thread about this subject and I didn't realize how late I was.
Herr Schwarz
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(04-21-2017, 06:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Still not very impressive. Why are there no CONTEMPORARY writings about this amazing magical sorcerer? Seems like it should have been a pretty big deal at the time.

I thought I covered this already. The only consensus is that Jesus was baptised, preached a bit and was crucified.

Those bits are the only consensus. And like I concluded there's a difference between Jesus the man. And astral Jesus from the bible.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Herr Schwarz

I thought I covered this already. The only consensus is that Jesus was baptised, preached a bit and was crucified.

Those bits are the only consensus. And like I concluded there's a difference between Jesus the man. And astral Jesus from the bible.

There is no scientific consensus that he ever existed at all. Look it up.
Cocaloch
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(04-21-2017, 06:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Yep. There are no contemporary accounts of him. Nobody who's written about him actually lived when he did (not).

You're wrong, there are many accounts of him well under 100 years after he lived.

Originally Posted by RoadHazard

There is no scientific consensus that he ever existed at all. Look it up.


What? Scientific consensus? Why does that matter?

Do you know who studies the past? You're looking for historical consensus not scientific.
Inferno313
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(04-21-2017, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Still not very impressive. Why are there no CONTEMPORARY writings about this amazing magical sorcerer? Seems like it should have been a pretty big deal at the time.

Much of the world was illiterate at the time, as Hollywood Duo just said. Plus, a lot of the writings that did exist in that time period haven't survived to the present day. Additionally, an important thing to consider is that none of the writings about Christ in the decades after his death, even the ones that take a negative tone towards Christian and Christ, suggest the notion that Christ might not've been a real person.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cocaloch

You're wrong, there are many accounts of him well under 100 years after he lived.

So not while he lived then? You should look up the word "contemporary".
dickroach
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 06:39 PM)
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it's undoubtedly Craig Ferguson
Hollywood Duo
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(04-21-2017, 06:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

As evidence of anything? Yes. I don't believe in Thor and Odin either.

I'm not even talking about religious stuff. Are all the Norse sagas fake? They were written down after the fact based on oral tradition.
BeesEight
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(04-21-2017, 06:41 PM)
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I'd probably guess Genghis Khan before Hitler. I'm not certain how often Hitler would be evoked outside the anglosphere and I don't think an average American could name Hirohito if asked who lead Japan during the war (and I'm doubtful that eastern cultures like China would jump to Hitler for an immediate example of war crimes and not things like the Nanking Massacre).

If we're just going off World War II leaders I'd probably put Mao ahead of Hitler for infamy.

But everyone probably can think of Genghis Khan.
Lovely Salsa
List of trash:
FTL
Chivalry
Shovel Knight
Divinity Original Sin
Broken Age
Kentucky Route Zero

I also dislike graphic novels, bus stops, maps, reading for kids, classical music, board games, opera, art, and geiger counters.
(04-21-2017, 06:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Berto

Yeah, but at the time he was not really an important figure, I mean, there were several guys that auto proclaimed themselves as messiah. The cult only gained popularity much later in time.

And thats all I really needed to know. I dont doubt for a second that vast majority of the people back then were stupid.

In some places in africa they still practice witchcraft and we all know how real that shit is
Cocaloch
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(04-21-2017, 06:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

So not while he lived then? You should look up the word "contemporary".

You responded to someone asking if the earliest accounts were written hundreds of years later with yes.

You should look up your own posts.

Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

Correct me if Im wrong but jesus christ was first mentioned hundreds of years after he supposedly lived

Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Yep.

Last edited by Cocaloch; 04-21-2017 at 06:43 PM.
Inferno313
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(04-21-2017, 06:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

There is no scientific consensus that he ever existed at all. Look it up.

The majority of historians and scholars of antiquity generally agree that Jesus was a person that existed, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and that he was crucified. "Looking it up" will give you that exact answer.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Duo

I'm not even talking about religious stuff. Are all the Norse sagas fake? They were written down after the fact based on oral tradition.

Whether they are or not, they're not evidence of anything. And that's what I'm saying: There is no evidence of Jesus having ever existed.
ClosingADoor
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(04-21-2017, 06:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Whether they are or not, they're not evidence of anything. And that's what I'm saying: There is no evidence of Jesus having ever existed.

Going by this line, about 90% if human history has no evidence.
Glirk-Dirka
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 06:43 PM)
Genghis Khan
Vagabundo
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(04-21-2017, 06:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Still not very impressive. Why are there no CONTEMPORARY writings about this amazing magical sorcerer? Seems like it should have been a pretty big deal at the time.

We're not debating the power(s) of Jesus just his historical existence. There is enough evidence to say there was a historical Jesus.
subrock
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(04-21-2017, 06:43 PM)
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I mean in terms of raw number of people that are aware of a person it would likely be someone from the last 20 years given that the world is more populated than ever, and pop culture reaches all corners of the globe.

If you were holding a picture of the person and walking around asking people who it was, I would say that you would get the most correct IDs with:

Michael Jackson
Herr Schwarz
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(04-21-2017, 06:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Whether they are or not, they're not evidence of anything. And that's what I'm saying: There is no evidence of Jesus having ever existed.

I mean what's the criteria of people having existed? Jesus DNA?
capitalCORN
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:44 PM)

Originally Posted by Inferno313

The majority of historians and scholars of antiquity generally agree that Jesus was a person that existed, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and that he was crucified. "Looking it up" will give you that exact answer.

Would you tell your profession to find your sources? At the very least provide google evidence.
Cocaloch
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(04-21-2017, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Whether they are or not, they're not evidence of anything. And that's what I'm saying: There is no evidence of Jesus having ever existed.

You really don't seem to know how historical evidence works. Especially since you seem to think it's somehow "scientific".

I have seen some really terrible ideas about the philosophy and methodology on GAF but this thread definitely takes the cake.

Originally Posted by capitalCORN

Would you tell your profession to find your sources? At the very least provide google evidence.

People in this thread arguing against his historicity aren't interested in the scholarship though. Why waste the effort. People have brought up plenty and its been summarily ignored. While at the same time unreachable expectations for pre-modern sources were given as the new goalposts.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Vagabundo

We're not debating the power(s) of Jesus just his historical existence. There is enough evidence to say there was a historical Jesus.

There is not. It's possible, but it's definitely not enough to say it with any certainty.
Lister
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(04-21-2017, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by autumnleaf

There is more evidence than simply the stories in the Bible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...lived-and-died

Lol, two paragraphs in and he's comparing Jesus to King Arthur. What a terrible aritcle.
Hollywood Duo
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(04-21-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

Whether they are or not, they're not evidence of anything. And that's what I'm saying: There is no evidence of Jesus having ever existed.

You do realize that all the history books written in ancient times were based on accounts from other people. They didn't witness everything first hand. So is all of non-modern history fake?
Airola
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(04-21-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lovely Salsa

Correct me if Im wrong but jesus christ was first mentioned hundreds of years after he supposedly lived

Lol, no :D

Paul died in 67 AD and by then he had mentioned Jesus several times. There's no way anyone can say Jesus was first mentioned hundreds of years after him. He even hung out with Simon Peter, one of the OG apostles of Jesus. He was alive when Jesus was alive, not sure if he ever met him before, but he hung out with people who had lived with Jesus. I don't know how anyone could even entertain the thought of Jesus Christ being mentioned hundreds of years after.
Inferno313
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(04-21-2017, 06:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by capitalCORN

Would you tell your profession to find your sources? At the very least provide google evidence.

I don't have time to seriously dig for this stuff right now, but this wikipedia page (Yeah, yeah. Wikipedia.) has a pretty good summary of this stuff, with multiple sources.
RoadHazard
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(04-21-2017, 06:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cocaloch

You really don't seem to know how historical evidence works. Especially since you seem to think it's somehow "scientific".

I have seen some really terrible ideas about the philosophy and methodology on GAF but this thread definitely takes the cake.

Science is really all you can go on if you want to claim anything with any certainty. We know evolution is real through science. We do not know whether Jesus ever existed. I'm not saying he definitely didn't - because I don't know! - I'm just saying there is no actual evidence for it.
Cocaloch
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(04-21-2017, 06:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by RoadHazard

There is not. It's possible, but it's definitely not enough to say it with any certainty.

You aren't even backpedaling well, but at least you've moved away from calling him fictional I suppose.

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