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Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Monocle

Russell's Teapot.

When talking comparatively about metaphysical beliefs, litteraly everything is possible.

Russel's teapot could actually be argued to exist if you don't need reality to be a factor in the debate.
efyu_lemonardo
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(04-21-2017, 05:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

Why not?

I'll tell you what, if you can convince me any person is capable of believing in such a mechanism without it having even the slightest affect on how they spend their time on earth, I'll play along.
Monocle
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(04-21-2017, 05:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

When talking comparatively about metaphysical beliefs, litteraly everything is possible.

Russel's teapot could actually be argued to exist if you don't need reality to be a factor in the debate.

That's rather the point, I think.
Maligna
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(04-21-2017, 05:03 PM)
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Another way to look at this (if you are teaching a child about the afterlife) is, if you never tell them they are promised an afterlife, then what will they be missing? They won't automatically expect to get an afterlife unless that idea is fed to them.

If I tell you that I'll give you a million dollars tomorrow, that sets an expectation. If I don't follow through, you get disappointed. If I never set that expectation for you, it's impossible to get disappointed.

Sure, they may hear about the afterlife from someone at school or something but generally they will trust their parents. If you don't promise a child heaven, you most likely won't have to deal with their disappointment in discovering it's probably not real.
SocksAndShoes
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(04-21-2017, 05:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

When talking comparatively about metaphysical beliefs, litteraly everything is possible.

Russel's teapot could actually be argued to exist if you don't need reality to be a factor in the debate.

Um, reality is a factor in this debate.
mavo
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(04-21-2017, 05:03 PM)
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"Does it look like im dead? How am i supposed to know what happens!"
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

I'll tell you what, if you can convince me any person is capable of believing in such a mechanism without it having even the slightest affect on how they spend their time on earth, I'll play along.

That recent Netflix movie about what happens after death touches upon this question, it's a really interesting watch.

Originally Posted by SocksAndShoes

Um, reality is a factor in this debate.

Reread what I was responding to. You don't need a God for the possibility of an afterlife to exist. To be clear, I am an atheist and a meterialist, so I don't believe any of this stuff myself.
Last edited by Kurdel; 04-21-2017 at 05:06 PM.
dlauv
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(04-21-2017, 05:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

So there's no god but there is some completely undetectable mechanism by which we all go to a parallel reality totally disconnect from this one and stay there forever once our body's cease to function?

The rabbit hole is pretty deep, buddy. Atheism is a colloquial umbrella term for humanism, primarily in reaction to the dominance of theistic religion. But technically, the term only has to do with denying deities, and not spirituality or even religion.
Last edited by dlauv; 04-21-2017 at 05:08 PM.
Holy Order Sol
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Muppet of a Man

Your "flame" carries on in the form of your progeny and/or your ideas.

Simple as that, really.

Makes you want to reevaluate not having kids if you plan on not having them. Or work just that much harder to have a lasting impact on society at large.

Not really. Not having kids and/or not making any sort of lasting impact on society is perfectly acceptable.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(04-21-2017, 05:07 PM)
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me personally.. death is inevitable, and amoral. I don't want a grave, if something HAS to be done with my body (i.e. can't just leave me at the hospital), cremate me and toss my ashes somewhere. there is no after life. Just like I exist now, there is nothing for this consciousness when it dies. Not emptiness, not blackness.. just nothing.

I find the people who fear or become depressed over death are those feeling of little worth, value, significance, or accomplishment with their lives. Me, I've tried to have and lead a good life... will leave many people with good memories, some people with bad memories, and when I go existence will continue on the same as it has when so many I have loved already passed.

All of this to me makes much more sense and is way more pragmatic than trying to believe that you get a second chance after you die. Don't waste your first chance, then you don't need to dream about a second chance.
Maligna
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(04-21-2017, 05:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Holy Order Sol

Not really. Not having kids and/or not making any sort of lasting impact on society is perfectly acceptable.

Indeed. If you don't have a goal to leave a legacy, then who cares if you're forgotten? Certainly not you.
demosthenes
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(04-21-2017, 05:09 PM)
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I don't have to deal with teaching to children yet but when annoying relatives decide to try to have a religious fight and tell me i'm wrong, it eventually gets to "WELL WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE". My response is, "I'll die and be cremated", and that's that.
VDenter
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(04-21-2017, 05:11 PM)
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I find it difficult to even think about death. Since its very unlikely that i would be even aware that i have died when i eventually do.. You simply cease to exist and return to whatever you were before you are even born. So living life to the fullest is pretty much the only important goal. This did have a somewhat of a side effect on me though that is me increasingly not caring what happens in the distant future. As far as i am personally concerned this life is all i have and all i will ever have and i made my piece with that a long time ago.
pswii60
(04-21-2017, 05:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bernbaum

Accept that they're gone, grieve, and continue to make the most of the time that you've got.

That's basically it. I really don't see why this is such a big deal? I never had religion in my life apart from the crap that was shoved down my throat every morning in school assembly. I lost loved ones, I accepted that nothing lasts forever and to make the most of my life while I'm here - and to celebrate their life and not dwell on their death. If anything, it helped me. I find people (including my wife) who grew up with religion actually find it more difficult to let go.

Originally Posted by Platy

There is no ritual more atheistic than a Christian funeral.

People get sad that the person is gone and we hold their bodies in a safe place out of the way.

Christians should be fucking happy if someone dies and give little care of the body remains if what they really believe to care is the soul which is probably going right now to the most perfect place to live eternal happiness next to God and all the angels.

I've always thought that. Surely if they truly believe in an afterlife then why not be celebrating that they've finally made it in to heaven. although as there is no time in heaven technically they were already there before they died anyway.
efyu_lemonardo
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(04-21-2017, 05:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by dlauv

The rabbit hole is pretty deep, buddy. Atheism is a colloquial umbrella term for humanism, primarily in reaction to the dominance of theistic religion. But technically, the term only has to do with denying deities, not spirituality or even religion.

I always thought atheism implied a belief in rationalism - that there is no point believing in anything that cannot be observed or influenced to some extent from within our perceived reality.

Then again a couple months ago I met a girl who described herself as secular yet believed in the existence of God so what the hell do I know?

Edit: also, your source says the exact opposite - that atheism is characterized by a rejection of (any) religious belief.
Last edited by efyu_lemonardo; 04-21-2017 at 05:19 PM.
N7.Angel
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(04-21-2017, 05:12 PM)
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like it's supposed to be, the end.
NervousXtian
I'm an idiot
(04-21-2017, 05:17 PM)
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We do, our bodies go back into the ground, and help to sprout new life. We do live on though, in the memories of those we touched while living. So we aren't forgotten, and our legacy lives on. Part of me is in my children, just as part of my father and mother, my grandmothers and fathers are in me.

It's the circle of life.

Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

I always thought atheism implied a belief in rationalism - that there is no point believing in anything that cannot be observed or influenced to some extent from within our perceived reality.

Then again a couple months ago I met a girl who described herself as secular yet believed in the existence of God so what the hell do I know?

Being secular can mean you believe in god but don't follow an established religion, ie Islam, Catholicism, Baptist, etc.
SocksAndShoes
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(04-21-2017, 05:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

Reread what I was responding to. You don't need a God for the possibility of an afterlife to exist. To be clear, I am an atheist and a meterialist, so I don't believe any of this stuff myself.

Right but if something exists, it's part of reality. Just because we don't interact with something doesn't mean it isn't part of our reality.

Dark Matter is real and part of our reality, but the likelihood of living humans interacting with it is extremely low.
True Savior
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(04-21-2017, 05:19 PM)
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If you die, you die.
pswii60
(04-21-2017, 05:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by NervousXtian

We do, our bodies go back into the ground, and help to sprout new life. We do live on though, in the memories of those we touched while living. So we aren't forgotten, and our legacy lives on. Part of me is in my children, just as part of my father and mother, my grandmothers and fathers are in me.

It's the circle of life.

The creative amongst us can also leave an artistic legacy. My music will forever live on iTunes and Spotify after I'm gone (although still nobody will listen to it).
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by SocksAndShoes

Right but if something exists, it's part of reality. Just because we don't interact with something doesn't mean it isn't part of our reality.

Dark Matter is real and part of our reality, but the likelihood of living humans interacting with it is extremely low.

When talking about god or afterlives, anything is free game.

Using reality to construct an idea of either of those is only human.
Goldfishking
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(04-21-2017, 05:22 PM)
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Man, some of you people are brutal to kids. Yo little timmy, when you die there's nothing. DEAL WITH IT.

I think it should be explained the same to all kids. Don't actually give them the answer but educate them on what people believe. Some believe you go to heaven, some believe there is nothing. But we don't actually know.

You don't have to blow a children's mind everytime they ask a hard question, you don't even have to give kids the absolute answer. The best way to educate children is to give them the information and let them figure it out on their own.
efyu_lemonardo
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(04-21-2017, 05:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

That recent Netflix movie about what happens after death touches upon this question, it's a really interesting watch.

What's it called?
dlauv
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(04-21-2017, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

I always thought atheism implied a belief in rationalism - that there is no point believing in anything that cannot be observed or influenced to some extent from within our perceived reality.

Then again a couple months ago I met a girl who described herself as secular yet believed in the existence of God so what the hell do I know?

Edit: also, your source says the exact opposite - that atheism is characterized by a rejection of (any) religious belief.

I gave you the link for irreligion, which includes many things. Check the panels to the right of the page to explore it. Atheism tends to be irreligious but isn't explicitly.
Adam_Vania
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(04-21-2017, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by SocksAndShoes

Um, reality is a factor in this debate.

and we have seen how the mind creates reality. how our senses can be altered by both internal chemistry of our brains and external factors. there have been scientific experiments in isolation chambers. we know that time can be distorted.

if we are hard materialists and think that matter creates reality (and not the other way around) then we must admit our matter is in a constant state of flux. reality is in a constant state of flux. as we age, we experience death often not as a sudden instant, but as a process of life. you die over your entire life, your cells die and are regenerated, the fluids and solids that comprise your body are ever-shifting. what holds it together is spirit. as the matter dies, the mind dies, the spirit dies.

i lost my grandfather to a stroke this year, and i spent an hour with him while he was alive, yet he could not swallow, he could not speak more than a word, he could look around the room, he could look at you with his eyes. that was it. but he was alive! earlier that week i was talking to him at a birthday party and now was living this disabled life. what was he experiencing? he was a Catholic, he had a church back at his home in Ohio, and he was involved with the community. if you spend your entire life with a culture, and there are these symbols and images and stories that you hear over and over, is it really that unthinkable that a person in such a medical state would experience a heavenly bliss? they say your life flashes before your eyes before you die. what else does? am i going to re-live going to see "Return of the Jedi" with my parents before they got divorced? anyways my family is atheist and we had a funeral sans body and priests w just family talking and sharing about his life. but my mom respected his community and his spirituality and also gave him a proper church funeral back home. it was important to the people who knew him. this is tolerance. death is a personal thing.

the (Western-written) intro to the Tibetan Book of the Dead says that whatever you were raised in as a child, that's what you will experience. if you are a Tibetan monk who learned about these deities and this cosmology, you will relive it. if you are a Christian, you will see that. and so on. it is a personal thing. Death is a personal experience. psychologically, as humans we tend to fixate on images and symbols, and these express the un-expressible on a cultural level. as an atheist i think it is important to read up on Jung and explore the concept of archetypes. he has written some interesting books on Christianity from that standpoint, from a psychological and cultural standpoint. imo Jungian archetypes are an open and rational atheist-and-religious-friendly interpretation of spirituality. it is a way for the atheist to understand the importance of religion's symbolic language.
efyu_lemonardo
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(04-21-2017, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by NervousXtian

Being secular can mean you believe in god but don't follow an established religion, ie Islam, Catholicism, Baptist, etc.

But you must be following some kind of philosophy that is affected by your belief in a god, right? Isn't that a religion?


Originally Posted by dlauv

I gave you the link for irreligion, which includes many things. Check the panels to the right of the page to explore it. Atheism tends to be irreligious but isn't explicitly.

Will do. Thanks for the links.
Lothar
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:27 PM)

Originally Posted by SocksAndShoes

The switch doesn't know it's been turned off. It can't tell you anything because it doesn't exist. There is no "it" to tell the story.

Same as before you were born. You couldn't experience anything because you didn't exist.

As far as "everything you do amounts to nothing", that's only true if you believe your actions and words have no meaning. That sounds like a self-esteem issue and not an existential one.

How about teaching the child that his or her actions DO have meaning, that the words they say and the things they do now affect the world they live in later?

No one's actions or words have meaning due to eventually everyone being like before they were born. After the heat death of the universe, then it's just like the universe never happened and it would be just as well if it never did. I could lie and say that's not true, but at least heaven is a comforting lie. It's a lie that makes sense. Heaven being good makes sense. Non-Existence being good and not making everything pointless makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Goldfishking

Man, some of you people are brutal to kids. Yo little timmy, when you die there's nothing. DEAL WITH IT.

Seriously, yeah. Mean parents.
Tymerend
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(04-21-2017, 05:28 PM)
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Having grown up as an atheist, I've always thought it was somewhat tragic that people teach their kids that when someone dies, they go somewhere else and everyone will end up together someday. It masks having to deal with loss when they've basically just gone on a vacation. It sounds nice, but I'd rather deal with the loss and come to accept the fact that I'll never see the person again.

On the flipside, I've never had to worry about death. I've never had to worry about whether or not I'll end up in this place or that. One day I'll just stop existing. It's comforting.
azyless
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(04-21-2017, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Goldfishking

Man, some of you people are brutal to kids. Yo little timmy, when you die there's nothing. DEAL WITH IT.

Why do you make it how to be some horrible, traumatizing shit. Children deal with this just fine.

Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

But you must be following some kind of philosophy that is affected by your belief in a god, right? Isn't that a religion?

No ? Plenty of people believe in some form of "higher power" without it being associated to rules or whatever.
Platy
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(04-21-2017, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

But you must be following some kind of philosophy that is affected by your belief in a god, right? Isn't that a religion?
.

Definitions can get tricky since lots of people say Buddhism is not a religion because it lacks a defined creation mythos
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

What's it called?

The Discovery.

Seeing Jason Segel play a serious role was weird, but the movie was good.

The twist is great, so be warned do not click if you plan on watching: when you die, you go back to the moment of your biggest regret so you can make different choice. So its like a second chance to live out a better life.

Last edited by Kurdel; 04-21-2017 at 05:33 PM.
efyu_lemonardo
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(04-21-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by azyless

No ? Plenty of people believe in some form of "higher power" without it being associated to rules or whatever.

I find that hard to believe - what point is there in holding on to a belief if it serves us no purpose whatsoever?
Muppet of a Man
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(04-21-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Holy Order Sol

Not really. Not having kids and/or not making any sort of lasting impact on society is perfectly acceptable.

It is if you don't care about a legacy. If you want one or want to "live forever", those are your only 2 real options.
SocksAndShoes
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(04-21-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

When talking about god or afterlives, anything is free game.

Using reality to construct an idea of either of those is only human.

Reality is not just stuff that humans can see, hear, or imagine. It's a state of existence.

Something existing = that something is part of reality, regardless of how much or little we can perceive it.
RazorbackDB
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(04-21-2017, 05:33 PM)
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“We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?”

I like this quote from Richard Dawkins, even if I don't always agree with what he says, it makes me think my life is worth something, just because of the unlikely scenario of me being born at all. Makes me think of the infinity of the universe, and how unlinkely it's to find life in another planet, just as how unlikely it is that our planet might be the only one with life, stupefying as he puts it. The vastness of the universe used to make me feel so small before but now, even if I never do anything worth a damn, I just think of my life as a rare tale and death it's just the great ending.
MoogleMan
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(04-21-2017, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

Celebrate life. Live it to the fullest. Love, laugh, forgive, because nothing lasts forever.

This. Because one you're dead, that's it. That's nothing. Death is a dreamless, wakeless sleep.
azyless
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(04-21-2017, 05:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

I find that hard to believe - what point is there in holding on to a belief if it serves us no purpose whatsoever?

Why does everything need a purpose ? You just believe or you don't and it doesn't have to be any deeper than that.
It's pretty common here for people to be non-religious but to still believe in some "spirituality" stuff.
efyu_lemonardo
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(04-21-2017, 05:34 PM)
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Gotta leave the house now, sorry if I missed any replies. I'll get back to this thread later! Really interesting discussions going on!

Originally Posted by Platy

Definitions can get tricky since lots of people say Buddhism is not a religion because it lacks a defined creation mythos

Hmmm so the term religion is itself ill defined. Why am I not surprised?

Originally Posted by Kurdel

The Discovery.

Seeing Jason Segel play a serious role was weird, but the movie was good.

Cool, thanks!
JNT
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(04-21-2017, 05:35 PM)
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I borrowed this bag of bones from the earth, and one day the earth will claim it back for others to borrow. Simple as that.
BajiBoxer
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(04-21-2017, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

But you must be following some kind of philosophy that is affected by your belief in a god, right? Isn't that a religion?




Will do. Thanks for the links.

When I hear "secular" I tend to think of belief in seperation of church and state.
SocksAndShoes
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(04-21-2017, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Lothar

No one's actions or words have meaning due to eventually everyone being like before they were born. After the heat death of the universe, then it's just like the universe never happened and it would be just as well if it never did. I could lie and say that's not true, but at least heaven is a comforting lie. It's a lie that makes sense. Heaven being good makes sense. Non-Existence being good and not making everything pointless makes no sense.

Teach your children that they can affect change NOW, in the present. Thinking about how everything is meaningless due to the universe dying out is absolutely pointless and irrelevant is every way that matters. Making the world a better place NOW is not just a meaningless platitude, it's something that everyone should be striving for. Just because something will be wiped out in billions of years doesn't mean it doesn't have value in the present.

EDIT: Not to mention that heaven would be awful in reality. I'm going to sit for the rest of existence doing what exactly? Do I even get wings to float around with? Do they have volleyball courts up there or something?
Last edited by SocksAndShoes; 04-21-2017 at 05:38 PM.
efyu_lemonardo
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(04-21-2017, 05:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by JNT

I borrowed this bag of bones from the earth, and one day the earth will claim it back for others to borrow. Simple as that.

Excellent way to look at it! Very unselfish!
Foffy
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(04-21-2017, 05:36 PM)
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I would assume atheistic societies would have the most peaceful view of death. By being scientifically literate, they'd be able to see that death is a continuation of process, and that there's no fixed "form" that is added or removed from anything, and this self is what makes us fear death.

I don't think that the above usually happens, though. I worry that these societies or people simply emphasize is a lack of belief in God, but still believe in dualistic assumptions that still assert a self, and thus, the fear of "nothingness as an experience" or a blankness to life seems possible. The real hoax is still held, and thus, fear is still held. They get rid of the outside Big Papa but fail to get rid of the outside "I" in awareness.

Who dies during death? This may sound like a silly question, but I am asking something nuanced. You are living and dying in every moment: millions of your cells have played this game while reading this post. Where is the fixed "I" that we get spooked about vanishing into darkness? Is it the loss of this image that gives us the heebiejeebies? An image is not a thing, it's a think; a unit of thought.
AndyD
aka andydumi
(04-21-2017, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by efyu_lemonardo

Celebrate life. Live it to the fullest. Love, laugh, forgive, because nothing lasts forever.

Pretty much. And it is reflected in funerals where the life of the deceased, as well as of those still alive is mainly celebrated not mourned. You establish your legacy through the good you do for those around you.
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by SocksAndShoes

Reality is not just stuff that humans can see, hear, or imagine. It's a state of existence.

Something existing = that something is part of reality, regardless of how much or little we can perceive it.

When talking about metaphysical shit, I do not agree that existence necessarily = reality.
SocksAndShoes
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(04-21-2017, 05:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

When talking about metaphysical shit, I do not agree that existence necessarily = reality.

So something can exist without being "real"? Is it then "fake"?

Or existing on a different plane of *AHEM* reality perhaps?
Aztechnology
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(04-21-2017, 05:41 PM)
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I'm agnostic. But I face it like this. I have no idea what if anything happen's after death and I can't change it no matter how hard I wish it to be true. I can't be worried about it all the time or I'll cease to be able to enjoy the time I do have. Fear of death is wasted time.
Muppet of a Man
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(04-21-2017, 05:44 PM)
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This quote by Carl Sagan has given me more context for and insight into the inherent value of being a living, self-aware organism that's part of the universe than any from dogmatic ideology:

Last edited by Muppet of a Man; 04-21-2017 at 05:48 PM.
You Are Viewtiful
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(04-21-2017, 05:44 PM)
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I don't see what's so "confusing" about death. I guess it's because I had relatives pass away when I was very young. You pass away, your body stops working and you lose consciousness. Everyone dies, it's just a fact of life like eating or breathing.
Stinkles
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(04-21-2017, 05:45 PM)
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Bummed that I won't be able to ghost spy on my moving funeral as a lone piper plays amazing grace as the morning mist sublimates into golden sunshine.

Also that I never finished Witcher 3 or watched Daredevil.

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