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DOWN
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(04-21-2017, 05:04 PM)
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They are asking the stores to pay Marvel to market Marvel?
Malreyn
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:06 PM)
As long as the MCU has established that Hydra was a science division in Hilter's army, the mainstream will always associate Hydra with Nazi's based on pop culture views, and no amount of "lore corrections/accuracy" is going to override that in our era of "feelings over facts"
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 05:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Slayven

https://www.bleedingcool.com/?s=diversity

A causal look at Bleeding cool will tell you what they are about

Oh yeah, I know. They've been laughable tabloid nonsense for years.

But honestly, this is probably the first time I've been legitimately disgusted by one of their articles. The fact that they took some random fucking dude on Twitter who happens to be a white supremacist to try and make Marvel look like they're on the side of Nazism is gross.
rbenchley
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(04-21-2017, 05:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by jurgen

Marvel to Retailers: "Pay for these shirt to dress as a Nazi fascimile and promote our crossover."

The brief period of Marvel Comics being a competent and clever company seem to be over.

It was a good ten years or so. We're back to the incompetent shit bag company I knew growing up.

Marvel has been going down the tubes for a while. It started with the ridiculous way they ended the Spider marriage. Jonathan Hickman's outstanding FF/Avengers/Secret Wars work kept me interested for a long while, but I'm out now. At this point, the only Marvel books I read are Silver Surfer and Thor, which are pretty much separate from the rest of the Marvel Universe.

Fortunately, as Marvel has stumbled, DC has turned things around. The New 52 was dogshit for the most part, but I've been shocked out how good so many of the books have been since Rebirth. I am a little worried that they'll fuck everything up as they start integrating the Watchmen stuff more and more, but Ive been mostly pleased so far.
Dali
(04-21-2017, 05:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Phamit

Last Season they had the whole the real Hydra is an ancient organization thing and that the group working with the Nazis was only a different one with a different philosophy within Hydra

The no true Scotsman routine doesn't fly when before that the whole mcu including AoS had this Nazi "offshoot" of hydra powerful enough to take over shield and threaten the world then come back this season and re-establish they are Nazis.
DeathoftheEndless
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(04-21-2017, 05:10 PM)
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We need to ban all villain merchandise apparently.
NEO0MJ
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(04-21-2017, 05:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by caliph95

Wasn't marvel branded SJWs

They're obviously trying to fix that.
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by stupei

You can't cash in on that connection to make your event extra headline grabbing and then also deny the link's existence when people point out that it makes promoting that branding super sketchy.

They spent the last year and 16 issues of a comic to explain away the Nazi links to get a Hydra Cap villain for the event, I don't know what else they could have done.

But yeah, maybe this ask was too big, considering less people read comics than react to what happens in comics.
Slayven
gimme some o dat God-crafted alabaster greatness
(04-21-2017, 05:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

Oh yeah, I know. They've been laughable tabloid nonsense for years.

But honestly, this is probably the first time I've been legitimately disgusted by one of their articles. The fact that they took some random fucking dude on Twitter who happens to be a white supremacist to try and make Marvel look like they're on the side of Nazism is gross.

That is the quick and easy article generator of today. Find a potential hot issue and search twitter for the posts that go for either side. As nutty as twitter is if you look long enough you will find a shit post to build a story on. "Journalism" has never been so easy
itwasTuesday
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(04-21-2017, 05:13 PM)
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I wanna be able to enjoy my fictional villains.
Mudcrab
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(04-21-2017, 05:14 PM)
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Pretty smart of Bleeding Cool to try to simultaneously cash in on the "Diversity is Bad for Comics!" and "Marvel are Nazis!" clickbait bullshit.
Sgt. Kabukiman
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(04-21-2017, 05:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

They spent the last year and 16 issues of a comic to explain away the Nazi links to get a Hydra Cap villain for the event, I don't know what else they could have done.

But yeah, maybe this ask was too big, considering less people read comics than react to what happens in comics.

You can't retcon shit like that. Cap was fighting Hydra during WW2 in First Avenger. That's how most people first heard about Hydra. The Nazi connection will never go away.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 05:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by NEO0MJ

They're obviously trying to fix that.

The vast majority of Marvel Comics is liberal-slanted. Like, heavily.

No, they are not trying to "fix that" by putting out t-shirts with a Hydra logo for a Hydra-themed event. Just like they weren't trying to "fix that" when they put out a storm of Hydra merchandise after Winter Soldier hit.
caliph95
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(04-21-2017, 05:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by NEO0MJ

They're obviously trying to fix that.

Ignoring the marketing that still hasn't chnaged
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sgt. Kabukiman

You can't retcon shit like that. Cap was fighting Hydra during WW2 in First Avenger. That's how most people first heard about Hydra. The Nazi connection will never go away.

Of course they can. And Hydra was part of the Reich, and Red Skull totally a nazi.

They added bullshit, they didn't take anything away.
Sgt. Kabukiman
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(04-21-2017, 05:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

Of course they can. And Hydra was part of the Reich, and Red Skull totally a nazi.

They added bullshit, they didn't take anything away.

Well let me fix that then: you can't retcon shit like that in people's minds.
Marvel can edit the wiki page for Hydra all they want but it's too late.
AlfonzoPalutena
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(04-21-2017, 05:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metroidvania

Great, job, marketing team. Must be taking directions from Nick Spencer's twitter feed on how to manage PR.



Long story short, while the HYDRA organization has (recently) been 'white-washed' in the new Captain America series as trying to be a 'separate' fascist ideology (and thus, not actually Nazis), for a large part of their history in comics, they were basically in bed with them.

Given the current populist/white nationalist political climate, and asking employees to dress as 'I can't believe it's not a Nazi'......

This is especially funny to me, because Agents of Shield is actually doubling down on the fact that Hydra are definitely derived from Nazis.

They're in an alternate reality dominated by fake news, and ruled by Hydra. Many of the Hydra members have the Hitler youth undercut, but they vehemently deny that they came from the Nazi's mad science division. It's heavy on satire from our current political climate in the US, very well done.

Then at one point Simmons literally has to say, "oh and btw, Hydra definitely used to be Nazis, don't let them tell you otherwise".
DeathoftheEndless
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(04-21-2017, 05:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

No, they are not trying to "fix that" by putting out t-shirts with a Hydra logo for a Hydra-themed event. Just like they weren't trying to "fix that" when they put out a storm of Hydra merchandise after Winter Soldier hit.

Wearing a Hydra shirt means you support Nazi-ism. Just like wearing a Joker shirt means you support rape, murder, and dropping people into vats of acid.
stupei
Don't modulate the key then not debate with me.
(04-21-2017, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

They spent the last year and 16 issues of a comic to explain away the Nazi links to get a Hydra Cap villain for the event, I don't know what else they could have done.

But yeah, maybe this ask was too big, considering less people read comics than react to what happens in comics.

More people see their movies that made overt visual and chronological links between Hydra and Nazism than read comics, yes. Marvel as a brand frequently uses the link between the two as a shorthand for "this is how bad our bad guys are." They're only trying to brush that away now so that they can sell these kinds of t-shirts and coffee mugs or promote Hydra characters in comics without people complaining.

This is not some kind of tragic situation Marvel was forced into by unknown forces beyond their control. They have created a successful media empire where their accented dudes in WW2 wearing specifically evocative uniforms have been viewed by millions of people.

They did that shit; not Bleeding Cool.
RipperGrim
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(04-21-2017, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Malreyn

As long as the MCU has established that Hydra was a science division in Hilter's army, the mainstream will always associate Hydra with Nazi's based on pop culture views, and no amount of "lore corrections/accuracy" is going to override that in our era of "feelings over facts"

Dude the mainstream aren't even going to recognise the logo on the shirt. People are acting like the employees are going to be wearing SS uniforms.
Slayven
gimme some o dat God-crafted alabaster greatness
(04-21-2017, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeathoftheEndless

Wearing a Hydra shirt means you support Nazi-ism. Just like wearing a Joker shirt means you support rape, murder, and dropping people into vats of acid.

Or wearing an empire shirt means you are blowing up planets, and enslaving wookies
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
(04-21-2017, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

Of course they can. And Hydra was part of the Reich, and Red Skull totally a nazi.

They added bullshit, they didn't take anything away.

I believe they were referring moreso to the 'popular/mainstream' opinion, rather than the specific 16 issue-long retcon to try and distance Steve.

Changing popular opinion of Cap to "sure, I can accept he's 'Totally-not-a-Nazi' now" would be rather tough to do, considering the (more than incidental) exposure of the vast majority people probably being the movies.
excelsiorlef
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(04-21-2017, 05:25 PM)
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Again with all due respect this shirt is no different than an Empire Shirt, or a First Order Shirt, or a Storm Trooper shirt, or a Death Eater's Shirt, or a Darkseid shirt or god knows what other super evil group you can get merch of.
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metroidvania

I believe they were referring moreso to the 'popular/mainstream' opinion, rather than the specific 16 issue-long retcon to try and distance Steve.

Changing popular opinion of Cap to "sure, I can accept he's 'Totally-not-a-Nazi' now" would be rather tough to do, considering the (more than incidental) exposure of the vast majority people probably being the movies.

I don't think Marvel should start basing comic storyline decisions on what the movie audiences would think about it.

They wanted to sell 16 issues, so they made a ludicrous twist in issue one and slowly explained it away.

If you are shocked by the revelation and want to know why, you need to pony up the cash and read the story, this is how the business works.
SpaceWolf
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(04-21-2017, 05:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

Again with all due respect this shirt is no different than an Empire Shirt, or a First Order Shirt, or a Storm Trooper shirt, or a Death Eater's Shirt, or a Darkseid shirt or god knows what other super evil group you can get merch of.

None of those organizations are connected in-universe to the regime that orchestrated the Holocaust, though.
excelsiorlef
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(04-21-2017, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by SpaceWolf

None of those organizations are connected in-universe to the regime that orchestrated the Holocaust, though.

Hydra shirts have been for sale for you know ages...

I mean just understand we are talking about a shirt with a logo on it and nothing else.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
(04-21-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

I don't think Marvel should start basing comic storyline decisions on what the movie audiences would think about it.

They wanted to sell 16 issues, so they made a ludicrous twist in issue one and slowly explained it away.

If you are shocked by the revelation and want to know why, you need to pony up the cash and read the story, this is how the business works.

Eh. While I'm sure this will sell, in no small part given the controversy surrounding it, I'm rather doubtful that as a whole, this is going to grow Cap's brand to any significant level (and in fact, risks turning people off entirely).

Which, insofar as it relates to making more money for Marvel, kind of is the point, especially as it relates to the movies, and their connection to the comics?

Granted, Marvel makes so much money off the movies it really probably doesn't matter how well this specific comic does (especially when it'll get retconned again at some point down the line), but that doesn't change the optics, or how it messes with the entire history of the character created by Kirby and Simon in the 40s.
Kinyou
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(04-21-2017, 05:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by stupei

The reason the whole "Hydra aren't really Nazis" thing doesn't fly is because the link with Nazism -- that Marvel actively works to establish when convenient -- is the reason Hydra is such a big deal in the mainstream understanding. It's only so very shocking to even the casual non-comic reader to hear that Cap is working with Hydra because people know that Hydra = Nazis.

You can't cash in on that connection to make your event extra headline grabbing and then also deny the link's existence when people point out that it makes promoting that branding super sketchy.

I'm not sure I quite agree with that. Hydra is simply cap's arch nemesis, something people were aware off after the movies. Sure that the Nazi connection adds shock to it but revealing that Luke Skywalker works for the empire would make similar headlines.
ahoyhoy
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(04-21-2017, 05:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by SpaceWolf

None of those organizations are connected in-universe to the regime that orchestrated the Holocaust, though.

The Galactic Empire is heavily modeled off of Nazi Germany. Is that enough to earn all storm trooper cosplayers scorn?
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metroidvania

Eh. While I'm sure this will sell, in no small part given the controversy surrounding it, I'm rather doubtful that as a whole, this is going to grow Cap's brand to any significant level (and in fact, risks turning people off entirely).

Which, insofar as it relates to making more money for Marvel, kind of is the point, especially as it relates to the movies, and their connection to the comics?

Granted, Marvel makes so much money off the movies it really probably doesn't matter how well this specific comic does (especially when it'll get retconned again at some point down the line), but that doesn't change the optics, or how it messes with the entire history of the character created by Kirby and Simon in the 40s.

I think their goal is to position similar to a wrestling heel. Some of the dick moves are enjoyable to watch, but you still know he is bad.

You like to see him try and save a Hydra suicide bomber, but then you see him try and sabotsge the shield.
You see him lock Carol Danvers in space, but he is also prepping a dictatorship.

He will die ans come back or whatever they will do, the return of Good Cap will be the event tu push his brand.
stupei
Don't modulate the key then not debate with me.
(04-21-2017, 05:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by ahoyhoy

The Galactic Empire is heavily modeled off of Nazi Germany. Is that enough to earn all storm trooper cosplayers scorn?

No part of Star Wars takes place on our own planet, let alone alongside our real historic timeline right when massive atrocities actually took place.

Comparing the two is disingenuous.

Originally Posted by Kinyou

I'm not sure I quite agree with that. Hydra is simply cap's arch nemesis, something people were aware off after the movies. Sure that the Nazi connection adds shock to it but revealing that Luke Skywalker works for the empire would make similar headlines.

The Netflix shows have had huge success, but I doubt an article about someone heroic teaming up with the Hand would garner the same reaction as a Hydra reveal.
Last edited by stupei; 04-21-2017 at 05:45 PM.
SpaceWolf
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(04-21-2017, 05:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by ahoyhoy

The Galactic Empire is heavily modeled off of Nazi Germany. Is that enough to earn all storm trooper cosplayers scorn?

Modeled off of, not literally connected to in-universe.
mreddie
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(04-21-2017, 05:44 PM)
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This is like if Gamestop had Killzone merch and everyone had a Helghast shirt.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
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(04-21-2017, 05:44 PM)
I thought the Empire in Star Wars was modeled more on the Roman Empire anyway, at least in the first movie.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 05:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by SpaceWolf

None of those organizations are connected in-universe to the regime that orchestrated the Holocaust, though.

Yes, but the problem is that this controversy is over a t-shirt with a Hydra logo -- something that has been on t-shirts for years and years.

If a comic shop sells t-shirts, they absolutely have sold multiple Hydra-branded shirts and other merchandise in the years since Winter Soldier.

The issue some of us have with this controversy is that Bleeding Cool is painting it as "dressing up as Hydra" and people on Twitter are re-tweeting it based on the headline. If you see the headline, you imagine that Marvel is asking people to dress up in Nazi-like uniforms.

But that's not what's happening. It's a freaking t-shirt with the name of the event on it.

Yes, Marvel trying to separate Hydra from the Nazis is dumb. But Bleeding Cool is painting this narrative as something it simply isn't. Quoting some random asshole Nazi on Twitter who happened to say "I like the idea!" is proof of this. It's incredibly transparent what they're doing.
Kurdel
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(04-21-2017, 05:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by stupei

No part of Star Wars takes place on our own planet, let alone alongside our real historic timeline right when massive atrocities actually took place.

Comparing the two is disingenuous.

Arguing thst things should never change in comics is futile. The Captain America books were always historical sci-fi, they don't have any moral impetus to be historically accurate. They have the luxury to pick and chose what sticks, that comes with the territory.

They didn't gloss over that fact or hand waive it, they went to lenghts to explain it and how things changed. They don't glorify the Nazis or paint Hydra in a good light either, bother are terrible organizations.
caliph95
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(04-21-2017, 05:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!

I thought the Empire in Star Wars was modeled more on the Roman Empire anyway, at least in the first movie.

Also Nazis according to George Lucas
http://www.starwars.com/news/from-wo...erial-officers
Last edited by caliph95; 04-21-2017 at 05:48 PM.
LordOfLore
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(04-21-2017, 05:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

Yes, but the problem is that this controversy is over a t-shirt with a Hydra logo -- something that has been on t-shirts for years and years.

If a comic shop sells t-shirts, they absolutely have sold multiple Hydra-branded shirts and other merchandise in the years since Winter Soldier.

The issue some of us have with this controversy is that Bleeding Cool is painting it as "dressing up as Hydra" and people on Twitter are re-tweeting it based on the headline. If you see the headline, you imagine that Marvel is asking people to dress up in Nazi-like uniforms.

But that's not what's happening. It's a freaking t-shirt with the name of the event on it.

And they want the stores to dress up their shop as well. This is not just a t-shirt or two.

We've also been asked to change our store logos to Hydra symbols. My staff are LGBTQ, Jewish, or both. We are no longer hand-selling Marvel

Keasar
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(04-21-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by johnsmith

That's not a hydra uniform


This is a hydra uniform

Looks like they started on the first letter of Y.M.C.A.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by LordOfLore

And they want the stores to dress up their shop as well. This is not just a t-shirt or two.

I already responded to you on this earlier dude.

Were those stores refusing to sell Hydra t-shirts or action figures after Winter Soldier came out?

Edit: And again, you're ignoring the fact that they literally are lying in the headline. The part about stores putting up Hydra logos, which is still not asking employees to dress up in Hydra uniforms, is in the follow-up article. It's not even part of the "dressing up as Hydra" article.

They lied.
Last edited by ZeoVGM; 04-21-2017 at 05:51 PM.
DeathoftheEndless
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(04-21-2017, 05:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by LordOfLore

And they want the stores to dress up their shop as well. This is not just a t-shirt or two.

Dressing up the store too?! That changes everything.
Tansut
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(04-21-2017, 05:48 PM)
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Marvel wat r u doin

Marvel stahp
JJH
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(04-21-2017, 05:49 PM)
Haven't paid much attention to sales lately, but is rebirth still kicking Marvel's ass? All these "events" really pushed me away from Marvel. Hope they can find their footing.
mreddie
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(04-21-2017, 05:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by JJH

Haven't paid much attention to sales lately, but is rebirth still kicking Marvel's ass? All these "events" really pushed me away from Marvel. Hope they can find their footing.

Yep but ASM was the top book last month.

Marvel Now 2.0 has flopped and this event has little buzz but post Empire, Marvel is gonna pull their own Rebirth.
Valtýr
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(04-21-2017, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by LordOfLore

And they want the stores to dress up their shop as well. This is not just a t-shirt or two.

And has been addressed already, leaning on a specific aesthetic for branding is nothing new. It's a Hydra heavy arc and they are emphasizing it. You will likely find many such examples in the past.
otakukidd
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(04-21-2017, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by mreddie

Yep but ASM was the top book last month.

Marvel Now 2.0 has flopped and this event has little buzz but post Empire, Marvel is gonna pull their own Rebirth.

Including no more events for at least 18 months after the event.
The Broken Ska Record
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(04-21-2017, 05:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Keasar

Looks like they started on the first letter of Y.M.C.A.

YOUNG MAN, THERE'S A PLACE YOU CAN GO.
I SAID, YOUNG MAN, WHEN YOU'RE SHORT ON YOUR DOUGH.
YOU CAN HELP BUILD THE NEW WORLD ORDER,
BY BEING A HYDRA SOLDIER!

IT'S FUN TO WORK FOR
HY-DR-AH!
IT'S FUN TO WORK FOR
HY-DR-AH!
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:55 PM)

Originally Posted by caliph95

Also Nazis according to George Lucas
http://www.starwars.com/news/from-wo...erial-officers

If you read enough George Lucas interviews you will find that the likes to change his mind every time he talks. He was clearly going for Rome in the original Star Wars. The only similarities they had to Nazis were visual.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 05:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by otakukidd

Including no more events for at least 18 months after the event.

Yeah, I think Marvel is poised to turn things around quickly. No more large events for a while should help with that.

It's been a long time since Marvel Comics had a down point like this and a long time since DC Comics were legitimately good and both of those things happened at the same time.
Zubz
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(04-21-2017, 05:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Phamit

Is the Trump Presidency a Secret Empire promotion?

With Perlmutter's support of him? That might be the inspiration.

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