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Kurdel
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!

If you read enough George Lucas interviews you will find that the likes to change his mind every time he talks. He was clearly going for Rome in the original Star Wars. The only similarities they had to Nazis were visual.

This is the first time in my entire life that I read someone say that.

If we are to use "clearly" to describe similarities, it would be with the Nazis.

Clearly!
DeathoftheEndless
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(04-21-2017, 05:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!

If you read enough George Lucas interviews you will find that the likes to change his mind every time he talks. He was clearly going for Rome in the original Star Wars. The only similarities they had to Nazis were visual.

And the name "stormtroopers" and the genocidal tendencies.
Alavard
Member
(04-21-2017, 05:59 PM)
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While the shirts themselves don't look like nazi uniforms, I don't find it unreasonable that some comic shop owners or workers (those who are Jewish or LGBT for example) would be uncomfortable wearing Hydra shirts.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:00 PM)

Originally Posted by Kurdel

This is the first time in my entire life that I read someone say that.

If we are to use "clearly" to describe similarities, it would be with the Nazis.

Clearly!

There was a republic ruled over by a senate for a very long time that was taken over by an autocratic Emperor. I'm not sure how you don't see it. That's not describing the story of Nazi Germany.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 06:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zubz

With Perlmutter's support of him? That might be the inspiration.

I wouldn't doubt that being a small part of it. There's been push back against Perlmutter from many divisions of Marvel.
Mudcrab
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeathoftheEndless

And the name "stormtroopers" and the genocidal tendencies.

Not to mention that they were space racists, who valued humans above all other species especially when it came to positions of power within the Empire itself.
Omadahl
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(04-21-2017, 06:01 PM)
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Is this being driven by economic anxiety?
ElBoxyBrown
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:03 PM)
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Marvel was never gonna win with this. This event is fucked. At least CWII had some people on their side. Nobody wants to engage with this.
Sandfox
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zubz

With Perlmutter's support of him? That might be the inspiration.

This story was pitched back in 2015.
jurgen
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(04-21-2017, 06:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by mreddie

Yep but ASM was the top book last month.

Marvel Now 2.0 has flopped and this event has little buzz but post Empire, Marvel is gonna pull their own Rebirth.

ASM #25 was also a hyped up $9;99 anniversary issue. It will be surprising if #26 even makes the top 10.

I want them to succeed but I don't think they've got the creative teams and editorial competence to pull off something like Rebirth.

Jason Aaron's got one foot out the door. Soule's relatively floundering right now. Lemire's out. Slott will only play with his toys and won't share. Waid can't write a flagship book anymore to save his life. Bendis won't try to write in line with anyone else's story. Brubaker, Gillen, Fraction, Hickman, Remender, Carey and all the other writers that made the last 15 or so years of Marvel comics so dominant are gone.

They've done next to nothing to cultivate talent. There's a few gems here and there like Coates, Loveness, Pak, and occassionally Ewing but I feel like they've spent the past few years coasting on the (deserved) popularity of the MCU and cultural relevance but have let everything else rot on the vine.
Last edited by jurgen; 04-21-2017 at 06:07 PM.
mreddie
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

Marvel was never gonna win with this. This event is fucked.

Sales of 0 and 1 will dictate how things go. Remember, no one wanted CW2 but that shit sold.
Kurdel
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!

There was a republic ruled over by a senate for a very long time that was taken over by an autocratic Emperor. I'm not sure how you don't see it. That's not describing the story of Nazi Germany.

You compared the accession of power.

Now compare the actual entities.
ElBoxyBrown
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(04-21-2017, 06:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by mreddie

Sales of 0 and 1 will dictate how things go. Remember, no one wanted CW2 but that shit sold.

Cap books are not selling. It might get a boost but honestly the promotion for this is really small compared to CWII.
jufonuk
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(04-21-2017, 06:07 PM)
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How's it a secret empire if you have a shirt about it ? No wonder they fail
Sandfox
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(04-21-2017, 06:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by jurgen

I want them to succeed but I don't think they've got the creative teams and editorial competence to pull off something like Rebirth.

Jason Aaron's got one foot out the door. Soule's relatively floundering right now. Lemire's out. Slott will only play with his toys and won't share. Waid can't write a flagship book anymore to save his life. Bendis won't try to write in line with anyone else's story. Brubaker, Gillen, Fraction, Hickman, Remender, Carey and all the other writers that made the last 15 or so years of Marvel comics so dominant are gone.

They've done next to nothing to cultivate talent. There's a few gems here and there like Coates, Loveness, Pak, and occassionally Ewing but I feel like they've spent the past few years coasting on the (deserved) popularity of the MCU and cultural relevance but have let everything else rot on the vine.

I would say Soule is doing fine, and his two upcoming books should be popular.

Marvel has a decent crop of creators that I would like to see shuffled around.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
(04-21-2017, 06:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by WrenchNinja

The Empire didn't work with Hitler

No, just a guy who destroyed whole planet's full of people
Sandfox
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(04-21-2017, 06:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Parallax

No, just a guy who destroyed whole planet's full of people

And led a genocide to wipe out the Jedi.
mreddie
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(04-21-2017, 06:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by jurgen

ASM #25 was also a hyped up $9;99 anniversary issue. It will be surprising if #26 even makes the top 10.

I want them to succeed but I don't think they've got the creative teams and editorial competence to pull off something like Rebirth.

Jason Aaron's got one foot out the door. Soule's relatively floundering right now. Lemire's out. Slott will only play with his toys and won't share. Waid can't write a flagship book anymore to save his life. Bendis won't try to write in line with anyone else's story. Brubaker, Gillen, Fraction, Hickman, Remender, Carey and all the other writers that made the last 15 or so years of Marvel comics so dominant are gone.

They've done next to nothing to cultivate talent. There's a few gems here and there like Coates, Loveness, Pak, and occassionally Ewing but I feel like they've spent the past few years coasting on the (deserved) popularity of the MCU and cultural relevance but have let everything else rot on the vine.

Aaron has something cooking and Soule has DD which has turned a corner and he's been given the top X-Men book. Agreed with the rest, it doesn't help post Wars, the talent has taken a HUGE hit. And worse, instead of giving indie comic people a shot, they give it to acclaimed writers.
jurgen
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sandfox

I would say Soule is doing fine, and his two upcoming books should be popular.

Marvel has a decent crop of creators that I would like to see shuffled around.

Compared to his DC and Image work, Soule's kind of underwhelming at Marvel. I'm really hesitant about adding the new Astonishing to my pull list.

I'm not denying that Marvel has a decent crop of creators they're just so poorly managed.

Originally Posted by mreddie

Aaron has something cooking and Soule has DD which has turned a corner and he's been given the top X-Men book. Agreed with the rest, it doesn't help post Wars, the talent has taken a HUGE hit. And worse, instead of giving indie comic people a shot, they give it to acclaimed writers.

I'm fine with whatever Aaron does. Thor has been great but I have a feeling his output's going to drop since Scalped is being turned into a TV show.
Last edited by jurgen; 04-21-2017 at 06:13 PM.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Kurdel

You compared the accession of power.

Now compare the actual entities.

They were an autocratic dictatorship that tried to maintain some of the old republic trappings as a facade. Aka the Roman Empire. It's not meant to be subtle.
Just_myles
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by johnsmith

That's not a hydra uniform


This is a hydra uniform

yeah, not a crummy t-shirt. Anyway, this is dumb. Comic stores need to really find better ways to promote their businesses than this.

Also paying for your own promos is dumb. If Marvel want's comic shops to promote their wares, they need to ante up.
jph139
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:15 PM)
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No question Marvel has a talent drain. You look at the most acclaimed books of the past few years - Fraction's Hawkeye, Hickman's Avengers, King's Vision - and the writers are all gone.

Jason Aaron and G. Willow Wilson are the only ones still hanging around, and neither seems interested in expanding beyond their core book.
mreddie
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(04-21-2017, 06:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by jph139

No question Marvel has a talent drain. You look at the most acclaimed books of the past few years - Fraction's Hawkeye, Hickman's Avengers, King's Vision - and the writers are all gone.

Jason Aaron and G. Willow Wilson are the only ones still hanging around, and neither seems interested in expanding beyond their core book.

GWW did expand but real life happened.

Remember she did A-Force?
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 06:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Slayven

https://www.bleedingcool.com/?s=diversity

A causal look at Bleeding cool will tell you what they are about

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...el-booth-c2e2/

Here's another fun one that appeared on Google News for me just now. What a weird, passive aggressive way to treat Spencer.

These guys are just assholes, to be blunt.
Sandfox
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...el-booth-c2e2/

Here's another fun one that appeared on Google News for me just now. What a weird, passive aggressive way to treat Spencer.

These guys are just assholes, to be blunt.

Jude Terror is a terrible writer.
jurgen
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by mreddie

GWW did expand but real life happened.

Remember she did A-Force?

She only co-wrote that, too.

Her jam is more creator-owned stuff though.

Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...el-booth-c2e2/

Here's another fun one that appeared on Google News for me just now. What a weird, passive aggressive way to treat Spencer.

These guys are just assholes, to be blunt.

Originally Posted by Sandfox

Jude Terror is a terrible writer.

Spencer did get into several twitter wars with Rich Johnston, so I imagine the relationship is shitty both ways.
Last edited by jurgen; 04-21-2017 at 06:25 PM.
Sandfox
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by jurgen

She only co-wrote that, too.

Her jam is more creator-owned stuff though.

She was writing the ongoing solo and then I think one of her kids was hospitalized.
zeemumu
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:26 PM)
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It's be cool if they sold a Captain America shield shirt that turned into a Hydra logo in the dark like the They Live shirts
Sgt. Kabukiman
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(04-21-2017, 06:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...el-booth-c2e2/

Here's another fun one that appeared on Google News for me just now. What a weird, passive aggressive way to treat Spencer.

These guys are just assholes, to be blunt.

Geez. I wouldn't call that passive.
caliph95
Member
(04-21-2017, 06:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sgt. Kabukiman

Geez. I wouldn't call that passive.

Are you sure it could be little less subtle
ElBoxyBrown
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(04-21-2017, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by ZeoVGM

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...el-booth-c2e2/

Here's another fun one that appeared on Google News for me just now. What a weird, passive aggressive way to treat Spencer.

These guys are just assholes, to be blunt.

1. Jude Terror is the worst of Bleeding Cool. Not defending Rich but he's an uptight citizen compared to him.

2. Spencer has been beefing with BC for quite some time, along with most minorities that currently hate the shit out of him. BC, like The Outhouse, doesn't owe him any anything.
ZeoVGM
formerly omg rite
(04-21-2017, 06:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sgt. Kabukiman

Geez. I wouldn't call that passive.

Valid. That was the wrong choice of words. Haha.
GreenScar
Junior Member
(04-21-2017, 06:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kurdel

I don't think Marvel should start basing comic storyline decisions on what the movie audiences would think about it.

They shouldn't, but that's increasingly what they've been doing since the MCU took off. There's no doubt that without the popularity of the Winter Soldier movie, we wouldn't even have a line wide event built around an organization that merely existed as canon fodder outside of Cap and Fury books.
HStallion
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(04-21-2017, 07:03 PM)
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Man talk a lazy dumb promotion on Marvel's part. When are they going to blame the poor reaction to this on pushing for diversity in their comics?
Sho_Nuff82
(04-21-2017, 07:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by DeathoftheEndless

Wearing a Hydra shirt means you support Nazi-ism. Just like wearing a Joker shirt means you support rape, murder, and dropping people into vats of acid.

Not even close to the same thing. We've all dressed up as villains at one point in our lives, or cheered them in pro Wrestling/drama television, the 'real life' equivalent of Marvel comics. Marvel choosing to humanize the organization of mustache-twirling villains (who are largely notorious due to their contribution to a real life tragedy) via Captain America, changes the way that Hydra is perceived.

If Marvel retconned Iron Man's origin so that he ended up funding the hijackers on 911, I think a few people might reconsider draping their kids in his expensive merch every fall.
excelsiorlef
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(04-21-2017, 07:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sho_Nuff82

Not even close to the same thing. We've all dressed up as villains at one point in our lives, or cheered them in pro Wrestling/drama television, the 'real life' equivalent of Marvel comics. Marvel choosing to humanize the organization of mustache-twirling villains (who are largely notorious due to their contribution to a real life tragedy) via Captain America, changes the way that Hydra is perceived.

If Marvel retconned Iron Man's origin so that he ended up funding the hijackers on 911, I think a few people might reconsider draping their kids in his expensive merch every fall.

Hydra merch has been for sale long before this story with Steve Rogers though... and they've literally had Steve kick out Red Skull... I dunno it might be a shitty story but it's still a Hydra logo on a shirt, the same hyrda logo that's been on shirts forever.
Sho_Nuff82
(04-21-2017, 07:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

Hydra has been for sale long before this story with Steve Rogers.

...with the explicit implication that they are over the top, tongue in cheek, evil villains. Pushing Nazi sympathizers as anti-heroes is the part that sucks.
Sandfox
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(04-21-2017, 07:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sho_Nuff82

...with the explicit implication that they are over the top, tongue in cheek, evil villains. Pushing Nazi sympathizers as anti-heroes is the part that sucks.

They aren't being pushed as anti-heroes. Both the marketing and the story are outright calling them villains.
Moose Biscuits
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:23 PM)

Originally Posted by Slayven

Or wearing an empire shirt means you are blowing up planets, and enslaving wookies

To be fair I totally support both of those things. I don't own an Empire T-shirt though because it would look a bit lame.
caliph95
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(04-21-2017, 07:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sho_Nuff82

...with the explicit implication that they are over the top, tongue in cheek, evil villains. Pushing Nazi sympathizers as anti-heroes is the part that sucks.

But Hydra Cap and his Hydra are the villains
excelsiorlef
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(04-21-2017, 07:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sho_Nuff82

...with the explicit implication that they are over the top, tongue in cheek, evil villains. Pushing Nazi sympathizers as anti-heroes is the part that sucks.

They are not for a second being pushed as anti-heroes...


Spoilers for issue 0 http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvels-secre...g-c-1794497110

Cap is the villain, Hydra is the villain
The Silver
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(04-21-2017, 07:34 PM)
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What the fuck that's just a shirt with the logo, I'm hear hoping it was full green suit.
Moose Biscuits
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:38 PM)
AIM > Hydra anyway. Better uniforms.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
(04-21-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

Hydra merch has been for sale long before this story with Steve Rogers though... and they've literally had Steve kick out Red Skull... I dunno it might be a shitty story but it's still a Hydra logo on a shirt, the same hyrda logo that's been on shirts forever.

Doing these things, for a some/a lot of people, isn't nearly enough to break that perception of Hydra = Nazi, though, especially when their film mediums (AoS and the MCU) have gone out of their way to highlight the Hydra/Nazi partnership.

And while Morrison may have tried to distance Hydra from the Nazis a while back before Spencer's run now, IIRC it was before/around the same time as when the first Cap movie came out as part of the MCU gaining huge prominence with the 'average' viewer, and (re)associated the two groups together.

The underlying problem here is that despite Marvel's attempt to 'safeguard' itself against Nazi sympathy claims by spending so much time making Steve explicitly NOT a Nazi (but still a fascist insofar as it relates to the style of rule), on some level, it's still using it for 'shock value' in order to try and sell comics, here.

Which is underscored in some examples we have seen of this Steve - while he's not explicitly racist against the Jewish population, for example, a flash-forward of the HYDRA future shows persecution towards mutants and inhumans.
Sho_Nuff82
(04-21-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sandfox

They aren't being pushed as anti-heroes. Both the marketing and the story are outright calling them villains.

Originally Posted by caliph95

But Hydra Cap and his Hydra are the villains

Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

They are not for a second being pushed as anti-heroes...


Spoilers for issue 0 http://io9.gizmodo.com/marvels-secre...g-c-1794497110

Cap is the villain, Hydra is the villain

Well in that case I'm inclined to care quite a bit less. Still, trying to soften their Nazi ties to preserve a shred a of Cap's dignity seems kinda pathetic.
excelsiorlef
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metroidvania

Doing these things, for a some/a lot of people, isn't nearly enough to break that perception of Hydra = Nazi, though, especially when their film mediums (AoS and the MCU) have gone out of their way to highlight the Hydra/Nazi partnership.

And while Morrison may have tried to distance Hydra from the Nazis a while back before Spencer's run now, IIRC it was before/around the same time as when the first Cap movie came out as part of the MCU gaining huge prominence with the 'average' viewer, and (re)associated the two groups together.

The underlying problem here is that despite Marvel's attempt to 'safeguard' itself against Nazi sympathies by spending so much time making Steve explicitly NOT a Nazi (but still a fascist insofar as it relates to the style of rule), on some level, it's still using it for 'shock value' in order to try and sell comics, here.

Or it's the story they want to tell... the review of Issue 0 from io9 sounds pretty great tbh...

Again Hydra shirts have been for sale for ages....

Originally Posted by Metroidvania

Which is underscored in some examples we have seen of this Steve - while he's not explicitly racist against the Jewish population, for example, a flash-forward of the HYDRA future shows persecution towards mutants and inhumans.

You know who else persecutes Mutants? Sentinels

Last edited by excelsiorlef; 04-21-2017 at 07:45 PM.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
(04-21-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by excelsiorlef

Or it's the story they want to tell... the review of Issue 0 from io9 sounds pretty great tbh...

Wasn't my intention to say that it couldn't also be some of that, but I'd put money that some of this is certainly due to some combination of wanting a 'shock' factor, both with Cap as an individual (and Marvel being concerned about sales), and the turmoil of the current political climate.

Again Hydra shirts have been for sale for ages....

You know who else persecutes Mutants? Sentinels

People are free to buy (and display) what they want.

The (potential) issue comes in when Marvel wants to use Hydra as a promotional material by wanting to have employees of the store wear it.
The Silver
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(04-21-2017, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sho_Nuff82

Well in that case I'm inclined to care quite a bit less. Still, trying to soften their Nazi ties to preserve a shred a of Cap's dignity seems kinda pathetic.

In practice, in the actual story he isn't being portrayed​ as any better than the Nazi's, there was a scene of the future where there were mutant concentration camps and Cap was fine with it. It's only evil ass Steve himself who thinks the Nazi's corrupted Hydra and his way is better than them. He's factually right that Red Skull's faction swallowed up Hydra, in reality his actions are still no better and it's easy to see why they tried to use the Reich in the first place.

Cap is just doing the same old trope of the villain trying to justify himself.
excelsiorlef
Member
(04-21-2017, 07:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metroidvania


People are free to buy (and display) what they want.

As are these comic book stores really it's not a requirement from Marvel.


The (potential) issue comes in when Marvel wants to use Hydra as a promotional material by wanting to have employees of the store wear it.

Hydra and Cap are some of the main characters... it's not different then if a big Empire Star Wars comic came out and Marvel asked folks to wear the Empire logo...
Last edited by excelsiorlef; 04-21-2017 at 07:56 PM.
Prototype Viktor
Banned
(04-21-2017, 07:54 PM)
They want to get away from Nazi imagery so they are offering Steve Bannon's face on shirts for a alternative

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