• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like
View Poll Results: When should the UK celebrate Independence Day?
June 23rd (Referendum Vote)
92 5.47%
March 29th (Article 50)
69 4.10%
The date Brexit completes
180 10.71%
July 4th (As per 1996's hit film Independence Day)
812 48.30%
Why not all of the above?
528 31.41%
Voters: 1681. You may not vote on this poll


cartesian
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:14 AM)
cartesian's Avatar

Originally Posted by whyamihere

Did I make it in this thread before "I voted for Brexit but there's no reason to explain my vote to you all!" or are we still see the phenomena of people refusing to explain why they voted to leave?

Originally Posted by Rodelero

Time will tell whether you are a naive optimist or not, but what you certainly must be is an optimist, for you have voted for total chaos despite clearly understanding the myriad risks and potential downsides. I have to slightly wonder at what massive upside you foresaw from Brexit that made the risk worth it.

Originally Posted by TimmmV

And what exactly were your reasons to change from Remain to Leave?

I see posts like this a lot, where someone insists they did a lot of research, and put a lot of thought into their vote, but then never actually reveal the arguments/evidence that convinced them. It's always a bit suspect to me tbh.

This reads to me that you will only really be willing to accept that Brexit was a bad idea if in 10 years time the country is in a much worse state, but that doesn't explain what good you think will happen or is happening since the referendum.

The problem is that undoing Brexit will be really hard, so its not just a matter of trying something out for a decade and then choosing whether to keep it or not, you have to make an decision about what you believe will happen - and so far pretty much all of the impact of voting to leave has been negative.

So yeah, you kind of dodged the question, he asked what evidence there is that this was a good decision, and your reply was basically that you'll only know whether you made the correct decision in 10 years time. That doesn't answer why you made it in the first place

He didn't really ask that. He asked whether anything would ever be able to change my mind about voting leave. I said the answer is yes, I'd change my mind if Brexit turned out to be permanent disaster. I listed a number of factors that could make me change my mind. I answered his question. Done.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend hours of my life explaining to Gaf why I voted the way I did. I see you think that makes me a coward and I suspect the implication is that I must be some kind of closet racist. But honestly, the reason I won't do it is because it would be a waste of time. I'm not going to persuade you of anything, so why bother? Let me put it this way. Why should I write a long essay justifying why I voted the way I did? Why does my reasoning matter to you? Is anything I say ever going to change your mind? Are you genuinely curious to hear a point of view and to potentially change your own? In your heart of hearts, do you honestly believe you could ever be persuaded that Britain should leave the EU? Are you willing to concede that you were wrong? And is it possible that I, here and now, will be the person to persuade you of that?

I'm sorry to pre-judge you but I honestly don't think that I'm going to change your mind on this; I honestly don't think anything I ever say will make any meaningful difference to what anyone here thinks. Don't get me wrong - I don't anticipate that anyone here will change my mind either. We've all made up our minds now. But I don't see much value in spending my week off bogged down in an internet argument.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of discussion and debate is at least to help us understand the other side, and ideally to change to persuade them to think like us. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people talking to themselves when there just happen to be other people in the room.

This is an overwhelmingly pro-remain forum, and that means I'm heavily outnumbered in these discussions. It's really frustrating and exhausting to try and argue a complex case against a large forum full of people who have pre-determined that you're wrong, and many of whom believe that you're covering for some kind of racism. It's not fun to fight such a lop-sided battle, to get bogged down in misquotes and misinterpretations, and to be totally unable to make headway. It'll be even less fun when a drive-by shitposter inevitably comes along, deliberately misquotes the first line of my essay, and we all spend the next three pages discussing whether I'm a xenophobe or how I have no understanding of xyz or whatever.

I'm not going to stand up and explain why I voted the way I did because it would be a completely fruitless and exhausting uphill battle. Try jumping into an overwhelmingly pro-leave forum and arguing for remain. It's not fun or productive to be so heavily outnumbered. Nobody's going to be persuaded by my views on EMU or the European Neighbourhood Policy or the democratic deficit or whatever. So I'm going to leave it there and enjoy what little remains of my Monday night.
Last edited by cartesian; 03-21-2017 at 12:18 AM.
silentg
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:16 AM)
In a couple of years time, UKGAF will be a lot quieter, as we'll all be be working longer hours with no breaks and less holidays, exhausted from shittier commutes to our second and third jobs, unable to afford decent mobile data or internet.
DarthMasta
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 12:18 AM)
Holy fuck punishing? What the hell does that mean? What, going to WTO terms? Because that's not punishing, those are some pretty sweet terms, at least historically.

Is it the EU's fault that the UK could use better than WTO terms? Other than that, it sounds like some people assume countries naturally have no borders, and everything works out awesome, and who the hell needs to agree on standards / rules, the natural state of the World is free trade... Yeah. Sure. That's why it takes an army of lawyers an enormous amount of time to actually set these agreements up.

I mean, historically Britain has had fairly good trade agreements around the world, but you can't very well park a battleship in range of the EU ports, can you? As far as I'm concerned the deal Britain should get is a deal as good as any other third party nation of similar size would, and the EU negotiators better be trying to squeeze every advantage possible, that's what they're for...
EleventhHourSuperpower
EleventhHourPlagiarism
(03-21-2017, 12:20 AM)
EleventhHourSuperpower's Avatar
It's a bad thing, but hopefully it doesn't lead to the final breakup of a much more important union and its place on the world stage.

Even plenty of Tories were against Brexit.
Last edited by EleventhHourSuperpower; 03-21-2017 at 12:23 AM.
Carn82
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:23 AM)
Carn82's Avatar
Pretty interesting Brexit related writeup:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-geert-wilders
TheChaos0
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:29 AM)
TheChaos0's Avatar

Originally Posted by cartesian

He didn't really ask that. He asked whether anything would ever be able to change my mind about voting leave. I said the answer is yes, I'd change my mind if Brexit turned out to be permanent disaster. I listed a number of factors that could make me change my mind. I answered his question. Done.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend hours of my life explaining to Gaf why I voted the way I did. I see you think that makes me a coward and I suspect the implication is that I must be some kind of closet racist. But honestly, the reason I won't do it is because it would be a waste of time. I'm not going to persuade you of anything, so why bother? Let me put it this way. Why should I write a long essay justifying why I voted the way I did? Why does my reasoning matter to you? Is anything I say ever going to change your mind? Are you genuinely curious to hear a point of view and to potentially change your own? In your heart of hearts, do you honestly believe you could ever be persuaded that Britain should leave the EU? Are you willing to concede that you were wrong? And is it possible that I, here and now, will be the person to persuade you of that?

I'm sorry to pre-judge you but I honestly don't think that I'm going to change your mind on this; I honestly don't think anything I ever say will make any meaningful difference to what anyone here thinks. Don't get me wrong - I don't anticipate that anyone here will change my mind either. We've all made up our minds now. But I don't see much value in spending my week off bogged down in an internet argument.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of discussion and debate is at least to help us understand the other side, and ideally to change to persuade them to think like us. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people talking to themselves when there just happen to be other people in the room.

This is an overwhelmingly pro-remain forum, and that means I'm heavily outnumbered in these discussions. It's really frustrating and exhausting to try and argue a complex case against a large forum full of people who have pre-determined that you're wrong, and many of whom believe that you're covering for some kind of racism. It's not fun to fight such a lop-sided battle, to get bogged down in misquotes and misinterpretations, and to be totally unable to make headway. It'll be even less fun when a drive-by shitposter inevitably comes along, deliberately misquotes the first line of my essay, and we all spend the next three pages discussing whether I'm a xenophobe or how I have no understanding of xyz or whatever.

I'm not going to stand up and explain why I voted the way I did because it would be a completely fruitless and exhausting uphill battle. Try jumping into an overwhelmingly pro-leave forum and arguing for remain. It's not fun or productive to be so heavily outnumbered. Nobody's going to be persuaded by my views on EMU or the European Neighbourhood Policy or the democratic deficit or whatever. So I'm going to leave it there and enjoy what little remains of my Monday night.

I don't know, at least you sound like you actually got some arguments. It's always interesting to see well thought out arguments and try to understand the other side.

I'd like to think that GAF is fairly understanding place, that can accept coherent reasoning, even if they don't agree with the outcome itself.
EleventhHourSuperpower
EleventhHourPlagiarism
(03-21-2017, 12:31 AM)
EleventhHourSuperpower's Avatar
Predictions:

-The UK will never return to the EU. Even in 50 years, replacing the pound (as mandatory for all new members) with a currency union without a fiscal one? That's insanity, and the pound might well be stronger than it is now. You should not have a proper currency union without a fiscal one, it's stupid. And if there were a fiscal union, the EU will be so centralised that its appeal also decreases. Let's be real, it is a terrible idea to leave, but it will never be appealing enough to go back...

-After some initial difficulties, thinks will greatly improve during the 2020's economically.

-Migration levels will only decline somewhat. Nobody will be happy.
Last edited by EleventhHourSuperpower; 03-21-2017 at 12:38 AM.
TheChaos0
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:36 AM)
TheChaos0's Avatar

Originally Posted by EleventhHourSuperpower

Predictions:

-The UK will never return to the EU. Even in 50 years, replacing the pound (as mandatory for all new members) with a currency union without a fiscal one? That's insanity, and the pound might well be stronger then. You should not have a proper currency union without a fiscal one, it's stupid. And if there were a fiscal union, the EU will be so centralised that its appeal also decreases

-After some initial difficulties, thinks will greatly improve during the 2020's economically.

-Migration levels will only decline somewhat

EU migration will decline but outside EU migration might rise. It's not like we have enough skill workforce to keep the services going.

2020 target doesn't sound realistic at all. That's barely after we would have left the EU, which is likely to be the worst period for us economically as we try to get back into a better shape. Try 2030, though that's just a number. The point is, if it does improve, it's going to take a much longer time than a year or a couple of years.
EleventhHourSuperpower
EleventhHourPlagiarism
(03-21-2017, 12:43 AM)
EleventhHourSuperpower's Avatar

Originally Posted by TheChaos0

EU migration will decline but outside EU migration might rise. It's not like we have enough skill workforce to keep the services going.

2020 target doesn't sound realistic at all. That's barely after we would have left the EU, which is likely to be the worst period for us economically as we try to get back into a better shape. Try 2030, though that's just a number. The point is, if it does improve, it's going to take a much longer time than a year or a couple of years.

I don't think skilled EU migration will decline at all. Paradoxically, people who were greatly concerned about its rapid rise might not like the alternative (non-EU migration). I don't see how there can be a substantial decline in numbers. Maybe a little, but the birth rate is just not there.

Over the 2020's any difficulties should improve, I don't mean 2020 will be a great year, just that the next decade should have a recovery. 2019 and 2020 could be the worst years, and should be the worst years especially if there's a trade disruption.
Last edited by EleventhHourSuperpower; 03-21-2017 at 12:46 AM.
guybrushfreeman
Member
(03-21-2017, 12:54 AM)
guybrushfreeman's Avatar

Originally Posted by cartesian

He didn't really ask that. He asked whether anything would ever be able to change my mind about voting leave. I said the answer is yes, I'd change my mind if Brexit turned out to be permanent disaster. I listed a number of factors that could make me change my mind. I answered his question. Done.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend hours of my life explaining to Gaf why I voted the way I did. I see you think that makes me a coward and I suspect the implication is that I must be some kind of closet racist. But honestly, the reason I won't do it is because it would be a waste of time. I'm not going to persuade you of anything, so why bother? Let me put it this way. Why should I write a long essay justifying why I voted the way I did? Why does my reasoning matter to you? Is anything I say ever going to change your mind? Are you genuinely curious to hear a point of view and to potentially change your own? In your heart of hearts, do you honestly believe you could ever be persuaded that Britain should leave the EU? Are you willing to concede that you were wrong? And is it possible that I, here and now, will be the person to persuade you of that?

I'm sorry to pre-judge you but I honestly don't think that I'm going to change your mind on this; I honestly don't think anything I ever say will make any meaningful difference to what anyone here thinks. Don't get me wrong - I don't anticipate that anyone here will change my mind either. We've all made up our minds now. But I don't see much value in spending my week off bogged down in an internet argument.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of discussion and debate is at least to help us understand the other side, and ideally to change to persuade them to think like us. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people talking to themselves when there just happen to be other people in the room.

This is an overwhelmingly pro-remain forum, and that means I'm heavily outnumbered in these discussions. It's really frustrating and exhausting to try and argue a complex case against a large forum full of people who have pre-determined that you're wrong, and many of whom believe that you're covering for some kind of racism. It's not fun to fight such a lop-sided battle, to get bogged down in misquotes and misinterpretations, and to be totally unable to make headway. It'll be even less fun when a drive-by shitposter inevitably comes along, deliberately misquotes the first line of my essay, and we all spend the next three pages discussing whether I'm a xenophobe or how I have no understanding of xyz or whatever.

I'm not going to stand up and explain why I voted the way I did because it would be a completely fruitless and exhausting uphill battle. Try jumping into an overwhelmingly pro-leave forum and arguing for remain. It's not fun or productive to be so heavily outnumbered. Nobody's going to be persuaded by my views on EMU or the European Neighbourhood Policy or the democratic deficit or whatever. So I'm going to leave it there and enjoy what little remains of my Monday night.

Many people are wondering what possible benefit could exist from this situation and when asked not a single person will try and explain to them what they believe the benefit might be. The costs are staggering, looming and obvious but when it comes to the benefits voters saw in leaving no one seems willing to talk about it
TimmmV
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:01 AM)
TimmmV's Avatar

Originally Posted by cartesian

He didn't really ask that. He asked whether anything would ever be able to change my mind about voting leave. I said the answer is yes, I'd change my mind if Brexit turned out to be permanent disaster. I listed a number of factors that could make me change my mind. I answered his question. Done.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend hours of my life explaining to Gaf why I voted the way I did. I see you think that makes me a coward and I suspect the implication is that I must be some kind of closet racist. But honestly, the reason I won't do it is because it would be a waste of time. I'm not going to persuade you of anything, so why bother? Let me put it this way. Why should I write a long essay justifying why I voted the way I did? Why does my reasoning matter to you? Is anything I say ever going to change your mind? Are you genuinely curious to hear a point of view and to potentially change your own? In your heart of hearts, do you honestly believe you could ever be persuaded that Britain should leave the EU? Are you willing to concede that you were wrong? And is it possible that I, here and now, will be the person to persuade you of that?

I'm sorry to pre-judge you but I honestly don't think that I'm going to change your mind on this; I honestly don't think anything I ever say will make any meaningful difference to what anyone here thinks. Don't get me wrong - I don't anticipate that anyone here will change my mind either. We've all made up our minds now. But I don't see much value in spending my week off bogged down in an internet argument.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of discussion and debate is at least to help us understand the other side, and ideally to change to persuade them to think like us. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people talking to themselves when there just happen to be other people in the room.

This is an overwhelmingly pro-remain forum, and that means I'm heavily outnumbered in these discussions. It's really frustrating and exhausting to try and argue a complex case against a large forum full of people who have pre-determined that you're wrong, and many of whom believe that you're covering for some kind of racism. It's not fun to fight such a lop-sided battle, to get bogged down in misquotes and misinterpretations, and to be totally unable to make headway. It'll be even less fun when a drive-by shitposter inevitably comes along, deliberately misquotes the first line of my essay, and we all spend the next three pages discussing whether I'm a xenophobe or how I have no understanding of xyz or whatever.

I'm not going to stand up and explain why I voted the way I did because it would be a completely fruitless and exhausting uphill battle. Try jumping into an overwhelmingly pro-leave forum and arguing for remain. It's not fun or productive to be so heavily outnumbered. Nobody's going to be persuaded by my views on EMU or the European Neighbourhood Policy or the democratic deficit or whatever. So I'm going to leave it there and enjoy what little remains of my Monday night.

For someone so concerned with not wasting their time, you sure do write long posts that only deflect the question
UpDownLeftRight
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:03 AM)
UpDownLeftRight's Avatar
Where's the kill me now option in the poll?

Originally Posted by RedSparrows

I've heard plenty of benefits thrown around, depending on your perspective: regaining of sovereignty, less immigration, disentanglement from an entangling alliance, etc.

We were still Sovereign, way more so than most EU nations so nothing was gained. Besides, do you truly trust this government to have free reign? I can't even be bothered to waste my time on the immigration crap since it's just thinly veiled racism and we're breaking an alliance that provided us with huge financial support. Why's that a benefit?
Last edited by UpDownLeftRight; 03-21-2017 at 01:08 AM.
RedSparrows
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:04 AM)
RedSparrows's Avatar

Originally Posted by guybrushfreeman

Many people are wondering what possible benefit could exist from this situation and when asked not a single person will try and explain to them what they believe the benefit might be. The costs are staggering, looming and obvious but when it comes to the benefits voters saw in leaving no one seems willing to talk about it

I've heard plenty of benefits thrown around, depending on your perspective: regaining of sovereignty, less immigration, disentanglement from an entangling alliance, etc.

The issue I have, as a remain voter who isn't sold on any of those personally, is that the Brexit picture put forward by a lot of people I have chatted with is that somehow all/some of these issues will be 'fixed', and that any costs involved, any possible losses, will be worth it. Or that the economic system by which we live isn't going to change, we're simply putting ourselves in a very awkward position within it. Furthermore, the idea that any cost is fine as long as it's not a total catastrophe seems quite common, and is worrying. 'It's fine, they need us too!'. Of course they do. That doesn't mean it was sensible to do this. Why would it mean that?

There's just so much uncertainty and bullshit I don't see how anyone can be happy except on principle, and even they, when not founded on dubious essentialism et al, are shakey given the economic and diplomatic reality of dealing with self-interested nations and unions. Newsflash: we are never going to be as free or as powerful as you dream. Nor is your boss going to stop being a shit.
bionic77
Please, don't ask ME about Michael Jordan!
(03-21-2017, 01:05 AM)
bionic77's Avatar
What are the odds on who becomes a 3rd world shithole first between the U.K. And the US?

Someone must be taking money on this (real money, so not the pound or dollar for much longer).
Bill Squabber
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:11 AM)
Bill Squabber's Avatar

Originally Posted by bionic77

What are the odds on who becomes a 3rd world shithole first between the U.K. And the US?

Someone must be taking money on this (real money, so not the pound or dollar for much longer).

USA already has terrible worker rights, and lack of universal healthcare. Are we too ahead for U.K. to get there first, or does the U.K. have more to lose and have less resources/power/leverage to overcome?
EleventhHourSuperpower
EleventhHourPlagiarism
(03-21-2017, 01:16 AM)
EleventhHourSuperpower's Avatar

Originally Posted by bionic77

What are the odds on who becomes a 3rd world shithole first between the U.K. And the US?

Someone must be taking money on this (real money, so not the pound or dollar for much longer).

Zero for the UK if there's ever a resurgent Labour in charge with real leadership, which might happen one of these days. It ebbs and flows. Even in the New Labour era they weren't cut friendly and increased NHS funding a good deal.
guybrushfreeman
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:21 AM)
guybrushfreeman's Avatar

Originally Posted by RedSparrows

I've heard plenty of benefits thrown around, depending on your perspective: regaining of sovereignty, less immigration, disentanglement from an entangling alliance, etc.

The issue I have, as a remain voter who isn't sold on any of those personally, is that the Brexit picture put forward by a lot of people I have chatted with is that somehow all/some of these issues will be 'fixed', and that any costs involved, any possible losses, will be worth it. Or that the economic system by which we live isn't going to change, we're simply putting ourselves in a very awkward position within it. Furthermore, the idea that any cost is fine as long as it's not a total catastrophe seems quite common, and is worrying. 'It's fine, they need us too!'. Of course they do. That doesn't mean it was sensible to do this. Why would it mean that?

There's just so much uncertainty and bullshit I don't see how anyone can be happy except on principle, and even they, when not founded on dubious essentialism et al, are shakey given the economic and diplomatic reality of dealing with self-interested nations and unions. Newsflash: we are never going to be as free or as powerful as you dream. Nor is your boss going to stop being a shit.

I owed the poster an explanation for linking their posts together earlier I think. You are certainly correct that those are commonly listed benefits, although they seem like wishful thinking in face of the very real costs to me.

However, I was trying to highlight why people are interested in the poster's personal opinion and why I personally placed those posts together earlier. As many people are faced personally with the very real costs of this people wonder what personal benefit could've been seen to justify it. This will impact the lives of many people dramatically and there is very little information about what personal benefit people expect to see. I appreciate why someone doesn't want to share and, of course, they don't have to. However, I also appreciate why it's a question people are asking of others. When faced with the costs of this they are trying to understand what could've possibly been worth it
Last edited by guybrushfreeman; 03-21-2017 at 01:30 AM.
Zvonimir Boban
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:25 AM)
Zvonimir Boban's Avatar

Originally Posted by bionic77

What are the odds on who becomes a 3rd world shithole first between the U.K. And the US?

Someone must be taking money on this (real money, so not the pound or dollar for much longer).

You have Florida, you've already lost.
EleventhHourSuperpower
EleventhHourPlagiarism
(03-21-2017, 01:34 AM)
EleventhHourSuperpower's Avatar

Originally Posted by RedSparrows

I've heard plenty of benefits thrown around, depending on your perspective: regaining of sovereignty, less immigration, disentanglement from an entangling alliance, etc.

I know you're not arguing this point at all, but to be fair to the leavers, the regaining of some sovereignty is actually technically correct (the best kind of correct) to an extent.

Cases like Thoburn v Sunderland City Council made it pretty clear. Some people will argue that it's not the case, but the fact is that kind of thinking is not accurate.

But....well, it's also important that you can convince people in Scotland and Northern Ireland to remain in a much older union. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made, and if the supremacy of EU law over parliament was the only argument for Brexit, well, sovereignty is a big deal for many on the left and a good deal more on the right but I don't think it's a big enough deal to ever get close to an exit.

The misinformation about immigration and funding for the NHS met with that old independent streak to lead to the overall majority in the referendum. Most of continental Europe doesn't have those three things, and considering how many people in Ireland and Scotland had to leave for a better life, the anti-immigration sentiment is likely a bit lower in such places as well, even if other values line up with how England and Wales view the world, which is why the result isn't necessarily (and hopefully isn't) a deal breaker.

So sure, there's many one benefit of leaving with a clear factual basis, but there are also concerns and risks that aren't pleasant to think about and hopefully don't cause too much harm.

Last edited by EleventhHourSuperpower; 03-21-2017 at 01:45 AM.
MrPing1000
Member
(03-21-2017, 06:54 AM)
MrPing1000's Avatar
I don't think England has thought about us too much, but the Northern Ireland situation is all sorts of fucky. Like Scotland we voted to remain, but we obviously have a very different political setup. DUP campaigned for Brexit, now pretending the country didn't vote to remain, Sinn Fein wanting special dispensation to leave us in the EU.Things are gonna get weird with the border, please don't get weird. I travel down to the Republic on a semi-regular basis, a hard border would be a step back in time.
Last edited by MrPing1000; 03-21-2017 at 06:58 AM.
Ashes
Member
(03-21-2017, 07:31 AM)
Ashes's Avatar

Originally Posted by MrPing1000

I don't think England has thought about us too much, but the Northern Ireland situation is all sorts of fucky. Like Scotland we voted to remain, but we obviously have a very different political setup. DUP campaigned for Brexit, now pretending the country didn't vote to remain, Sinn Fein wanting special dispensation to leave us in the EU.Things are gonna get weird with the border, please don't get weird. I travel down to the Republic on a semi-regular basis, a hard border would be a step back in time.

Speaking from London and as a person who lived through worse times, this was a concern for me, and a good reason for voting Remain. I really do not want to see anything jeopardise the situation over there.

Lots of people just take the more peaceful times now for granted. :/
Last edited by Ashes; 03-21-2017 at 07:35 AM.
Ashes
Member
(03-21-2017, 07:42 AM)
Ashes's Avatar

Originally Posted by Carn82

Pretty interesting Brexit related writeup:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-geert-wilders

Nice article.

Britain produces some of the finest journalism in the world, and reports in the Economist and the Financial Times by Dutch-speaking reporters have been throwing cold water on Nexit alarmism for months. But those publications are interested in the truth, whereas the billionaire-owned Brexit press merely seeks out facts that can be shoehorned into whatever narrative their owner has told them to spin.

Speaking as somebody who knows a thing or two about media intelligence, I can say that the FT is pretty much out on its own in this regard. The Economist is a pretty good 1-2 combination if you want a newspaper + 'news' magazine combo.
toddhunter
Member
(03-21-2017, 07:48 AM)
toddhunter's Avatar

Originally Posted by theaface

Going to get my holiday currency this week as I expect the pound to tank some more when the UK pulls the trigger on the gun it jammed against it's own temple.



Trump is a disaster, but a disaster that will last for 4 or 8 years at most. Climate change aside, he can be recovered from relatively quickly, potentially.

Brexit will ruin things for millions of people for a generation at least.

You obviously have not heard of the supreme court. Both countries are fucked for generations to come.

Umm so yeah.
Mr_Moogle
Member
(03-21-2017, 07:50 AM)
Mr_Moogle's Avatar
As much as I want to watch the UK crash and burn this will inevitably lead to more poms immigrating to Australia and we have enough of those already. I can see it in my mind right now , pasty englishmen sipping tea from a thermos on a 35 C day, freaking everybody out.
massoluk
Member
(03-21-2017, 07:53 AM)
massoluk's Avatar
When is Scotland joining the EU?
Ashes
Member
(03-21-2017, 07:53 AM)
Ashes's Avatar

Originally Posted by Mr_Moogle

As much as I want to watch the UK crash and burn this will inevitably lead to more poms immigrating to Australia and we have enough of those already. I can see it in my mind right now , pasty englishmen sipping tea from a thermos on a 35 C day, freaking everybody out.

We're both tied for life mate. You have the weather and the beaches, we have an absence of things that can kill us, and proper weather for Christmas (at least in the North).
theaface
Member
(03-21-2017, 08:03 AM)
theaface's Avatar

Originally Posted by toddhunter

You obviously have not heard of the supreme court. Both countries are fucked for generations to come.

Umm so yeah.

Maybe, maybe not. Gorsuch doesn't seem so horrendous on the face of it and whether or not there will be other appointees during Trump's administration remains to be seen.

On a slightly different note, I see no one managed to come back and answer my question about how we're supposed to make a success of Brexit in real terms. What a shocker.
Rourkey
Member
(03-21-2017, 08:22 AM)
Rourkey's Avatar

Originally Posted by Mr_Moogle

As much as I want to watch the UK crash and burn this will inevitably lead to more poms immigrating to Australia and we have enough of those already. I can see it in my mind right now , pasty englishmen sipping tea from a thermos on a 35 C day, freaking everybody out.

Nice
pswii60
(03-21-2017, 08:23 AM)
pswii60's Avatar

Originally Posted by Lucumo

Awesome. Bye bye UK (hoping Scotland can get out of this though).

The irony.

Originally Posted by Mr_Moogle

As much as I want to watch the UK crash and burn this will inevitably lead to more poms immigrating to Australia and we have enough of those already. I can see it in my mind right now , pasty englishmen sipping tea from a thermos on a 35 C day, freaking everybody out.

I'm just imaging the outrage if it was any nationality other than the English at the butt of this post.
travisbickle
(03-21-2017, 08:24 AM)
travisbickle's Avatar

Originally Posted by Ashes

We're both tied for life mate. You have the weather and the beaches, we have an absence of things that can kill us, and proper weather for Christmas (at least in the North).


The Conservative party are trying to change that, they just have to start with the elderly, weak and disabled.
Dougald
Member
(03-21-2017, 08:30 AM)
Dougald's Avatar

Originally Posted by cartesian

He didn't really ask that. He asked whether anything would ever be able to change my mind about voting leave. I said the answer is yes, I'd change my mind if Brexit turned out to be permanent disaster. I listed a number of factors that could make me change my mind. I answered his question. Done.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend hours of my life explaining to Gaf why I voted the way I did. I see you think that makes me a coward and I suspect the implication is that I must be some kind of closet racist. But honestly, the reason I won't do it is because it would be a waste of time. I'm not going to persuade you of anything, so why bother? Let me put it this way. Why should I write a long essay justifying why I voted the way I did? Why does my reasoning matter to you? Is anything I say ever going to change your mind? Are you genuinely curious to hear a point of view and to potentially change your own? In your heart of hearts, do you honestly believe you could ever be persuaded that Britain should leave the EU? Are you willing to concede that you were wrong? And is it possible that I, here and now, will be the person to persuade you of that?

I'm sorry to pre-judge you but I honestly don't think that I'm going to change your mind on this; I honestly don't think anything I ever say will make any meaningful difference to what anyone here thinks. Don't get me wrong - I don't anticipate that anyone here will change my mind either. We've all made up our minds now. But I don't see much value in spending my week off bogged down in an internet argument.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of discussion and debate is at least to help us understand the other side, and ideally to change to persuade them to think like us. Otherwise it's just a bunch of people talking to themselves when there just happen to be other people in the room.

This is an overwhelmingly pro-remain forum, and that means I'm heavily outnumbered in these discussions. It's really frustrating and exhausting to try and argue a complex case against a large forum full of people who have pre-determined that you're wrong, and many of whom believe that you're covering for some kind of racism. It's not fun to fight such a lop-sided battle, to get bogged down in misquotes and misinterpretations, and to be totally unable to make headway. It'll be even less fun when a drive-by shitposter inevitably comes along, deliberately misquotes the first line of my essay, and we all spend the next three pages discussing whether I'm a xenophobe or how I have no understanding of xyz or whatever.

I'm not going to stand up and explain why I voted the way I did because it would be a completely fruitless and exhausting uphill battle. Try jumping into an overwhelmingly pro-leave forum and arguing for remain. It's not fun or productive to be so heavily outnumbered. Nobody's going to be persuaded by my views on EMU or the European Neighbourhood Policy or the democratic deficit or whatever. So I'm going to leave it there and enjoy what little remains of my Monday night.

6 paragraphs of 'I don't have time to explain why I voted leave'. You can't make it up

There are a few posters on here who voted leave that have already gone over their reasoning in other threads, and while I don't agree with them I still respect them. GAF may lean overwhelmingly remain, but I like to think we can debate here. Funnily enough, it's always the people railing against the implication that they're xenophobic who deflect and make drive-by posts without engaging in the conversation.

If you don't want to engage that's fine, being in the minority in a discussion isn't always fun, but proclaiming that you have vast, wonderful opinions that you won't share with anyone is baffling.
Protome
Member
(03-21-2017, 08:40 AM)
Protome's Avatar

Originally Posted by massoluk

When is Scotland joining the EU?

The seconds IndyRef won't be until after Brexit, so at least two years away.
If that succeeds itll be a year or two of negotiations as we leave the UK.

It'll then take several years to rejoin the EU.

So... Not anytime soon.
Shotgun Kiss
Member
(03-21-2017, 09:39 AM)
Shotgun Kiss's Avatar

Originally Posted by Veelk

It sucks for all you British people, but atleast you don't have Donald Trump running your country.

People need to stop comparing these two things.

Donald Trump will be out of office in 8 years at the very most. Possibly 4. Brexit is going to negatively impact people in the UK for the rest of our lives.

Given the choice, I'd far rather have Trump.
chadskin
Member
(03-21-2017, 09:43 AM)
chadskin's Avatar

Theresa May’s government will go into Brexit negotiations believing the U.K. could legally walk away from the EU without paying a divorce bill, a Brexit minister signaled Monday.

David Jones, the number two in David Davis’ Department for Exiting the European Union, backed the findings of a recent report which claimed the U.K. would not be liable for any financial contributions if it left the EU without a deal, during evidence to a committee of MPs Monday.

Meanwhile, a senior Conservative MP risked souring relations with a key EU negotiating partner by urging the government to “tactfully” remind European officials that the U.K. helped Germany waive half of its war debt in the 1950s.

Bill Cash, chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, said it would be a useful point to make given “Germany’s extremely dominant role in the European Union” and insisted that “we really don’t owe anything to the European Union.”

http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-co...sters-believe/
CyclopsRock
Member
(03-21-2017, 09:48 AM)
CyclopsRock's Avatar

Originally Posted by UpDownLeftRight

Where's the kill me now option in the poll?



We were still Sovereign, way more so than most EU nations so nothing was gained. Besides, do you truly trust this government to have free reign? I can't even be bothered to waste my time on the immigration crap since it's just thinly veiled racism and we're breaking an alliance that provided us with huge financial support. Why's that a benefit?

Crumbs. This is like "all the worst arguments: the post". I voted remain - really - but posts like this drive me absolutely mental. You've chosen the worst, weakest and most easy to riddle with fish-and-barrel-smelling bullets arguments available.
theaface
Member
(03-21-2017, 09:50 AM)
theaface's Avatar

Originally Posted by chadskin

http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-co...sters-believe/

The astounding arrogance of the Brexiteers never ceases to amaze. I don't know how people who build their careers in politics cannot grasp that there's more to diplomacy, relationship building and negotiating than just the letter of the law. There are shades of grey. Article 50 shades of grey, even. Hur hur.

I suppose this is just a precursor to the narrative that'll run and run in the Mail and Express that our glorious empire would be prospering if not for the meddling of those EU bully boys, despite the fact that the souring of our relationship is entirely of our own making.
Uzzy
(03-21-2017, 09:57 AM)
Uzzy's Avatar

Originally Posted by chadskin

http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-co...sters-believe/

Mentioning the war will be a surefire way to get the EU to do exactly what we want. Hell, maybe if we bring up WW1 and the Napoleonic wars, they'll bend the knee and rename the EU to the New British Empire in gratitude.
CTLance
(03-21-2017, 09:58 AM)
CTLance's Avatar
Best of luck, UK. I knew you islanders were right kinky, but it's a bit much to do this BDSM stuff on a national level.
This will be a painful experience for both the UK and the EU. May the gods have mercy on our wretched souls.

I "love"* that the EU is already being set up as a scapegoat. Again. Or is that *still*? Can't really win with these people.

*) if Trump can do this, then I can do it too.


Oh well, at least the days of the British Extrawursts are going to come to an end. Ironically, right as the EU openly considers the whole different speeds thing - which will likely result in that issue, on steroids.

I truly pity the Scots and the Irish in this whole fustercluck though. Maintaining the Good Friday agreement and the whole independence issue will be monumental challenges with profound consequences.
IISANDERII
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:00 AM)
IISANDERII's Avatar

Originally Posted by NekoFever

Just watch the health services. So many doctors already know they can get better pay, conditions, quality of life, etc abroad, and a qualified British doctor can almost take their pick of other countries. We've got a government that's undermining and dismantling the NHS at every opportunity, and the NHS is going to lose the option of quickly and easily hiring doctors from within the EU.

My girlfriend's a doctor and has a ridiculous number of medical friends who've left for Australia in the last couple of years. Pretty sure she's had her head turned after going out there for a wedding last year.

What about your relationship? Will you go with her?
cluderi
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:04 AM)
cluderi's Avatar

Originally Posted by NekoFever

Just watch the health services. So many doctors already know they can get better pay, conditions, quality of life, etc abroad, and a qualified British doctor can almost take their pick of other countries. We've got a government that's undermining and dismantling the NHS at every opportunity, and the NHS is going to lose the option of quickly and easily hiring doctors from within the EU.

My girlfriend's a doctor and has a ridiculous number of medical friends who've left for Australia in the last couple of years. Pretty sure she's had her head turned after going out there for a wedding last year.

Better be quick about it. Seems Australia has already had their fill of our disgruntled doctors and are looking are revising the skills list for work visas.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-11-02/b...-restrictions/
Last edited by cluderi; 03-21-2017 at 10:11 AM.
oti
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:21 AM)
oti's Avatar

Originally Posted by CTLance

Best of luck, UK. I knew you islanders were right kinky, but it's a bit much to do this BDSM stuff on a national level.

No kink shaming!
ittoryu
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:46 AM)
ittoryu's Avatar

Originally Posted by Carn82

Pretty interesting Brexit related writeup:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-geert-wilders

This is a great article.
Martinski43
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 10:47 AM)
Martinski43's Avatar
Bye Felicia.
Spaced Harrier
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:52 AM)
Spaced Harrier's Avatar

Originally Posted by Martinski43

Bye Felicia.

The United Kingdom of Felicia & Stacy
Daffy Duck
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:59 AM)
Daffy Duck's Avatar
Hahahahaha, I love the poll, July 4th is the only true answer.
NekoFever
Member
(03-21-2017, 10:59 AM)
NekoFever's Avatar

Originally Posted by MrPing1000

I don't think England has thought about us too much, but the Northern Ireland situation is all sorts of fucky. Like Scotland we voted to remain, but we obviously have a very different political setup. DUP campaigned for Brexit, now pretending the country didn't vote to remain, Sinn Fein wanting special dispensation to leave us in the EU.Things are gonna get weird with the border, please don't get weird. I travel down to the Republic on a semi-regular basis, a hard border would be a step back in time.

I really can't see a hard border between NI and the Republic happening. Neither side wants it and it wouldn't surprise me if it kicked off the Troubles again.

Mind you, a return to the 70s seems to be what the Brexiteers want, so...

Originally Posted by IISANDERII

What about your relationship? Will you go with her?

Fingers crossed.

Originally Posted by cluderi

Better be quick about it. Seems Australia has already had their fill of our disgruntled doctors and are looking are revising the skills list for work visas.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-11-02/b...-restrictions/

Wouldn't be a problem with her specialisations.
Mr_Moogle
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:00 AM)
Mr_Moogle's Avatar

Originally Posted by pswii60

The irony.

I'm just imaging the outrage if it was any nationality other than the English at the butt of this post.

Just a bit of friendly colonial banter. I thought the part about sipping tea in the heat would have made that pretty obvious.
CTLance
(03-21-2017, 11:04 AM)
CTLance's Avatar

Originally Posted by oti xero

No kink shaming!

I'd be willing to bear the stigma of a kink shamer if this would stop the upcoming public exhibition/humiliation play between UK and EU.
elseanio
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:06 AM)
elseanio's Avatar
Go away the 2nd week in April. Pretty much resigned to getting a bad rate on the Euro - is there a good time to exchange though? Before or after article 50?
Oersted
Member
(03-21-2017, 11:12 AM)
Oersted's Avatar

Originally Posted by theaface

Going to get my holiday currency this week as I expect the pound to tank some more when the UK pulls the trigger on the gun it jammed against it's own temple.



Trump is a disaster, but a disaster that will last for 4 or 8 years at most. Climate change aside, he can be recovered from relatively quickly, potentially.

Brexit will ruin things for millions of people for a generation at least.

The budget cuts, the school reform esc will create lost generations.

Thread Tools