• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

A Serious Man
Member
(01-02-2017, 01:26 PM)
A Serious Man's Avatar
So what's the consensus on Kaladesh? I watched BBD win Worlds and then had to totally check out due to work/life.
Firemind
Member
(01-02-2017, 01:38 PM)
Firemind's Avatar

Originally Posted by A Serious Man

So what's the consensus on Kaladesh? I watched BBD win Worlds and then had to totally check out due to work/life.

Probably the worst Standard ever.
OnPoint
Member
(01-02-2017, 02:05 PM)
OnPoint's Avatar
Vehicles wouldn't be so bad if there were tricks or hate to deal with them. I mean aside from the obvious splash damage decent artifact hate could do, they could always do something flarvorful like this.
_________________________

Forced Ejection 1W

Instant

Target Vehicle neither receives nor
deals combat damage this turn.

Draw a card.

Mayday -- MAYDAY!
_________________________
While I wish Aether Revolt had something like this, I have a feeling it's too soon for them to have realized the lack of answers was a problem and we won't starts seeing any until Amonkhet at the soonest.
Imperfected
Member
(01-02-2017, 02:15 PM)

Originally Posted by OnPoint

Vehicles wouldn't be so bad if there were tricks or hate to deal with them. I mean aside from the obvious splash damage decent artifact hate could do, they could always do something flarvorful like this.

_________________________

Forced Ejection 1W

Instant

Target Vehicle neither receives nor
deals combat damage this turn.

Draw a card.

Mayday -- MAYDAY!
_________________________
While I wish Aether Revolt had something like this, I have a feeling it's too soon for them to have realized the lack of answers was a problem and we won't starts seeing any until Amonkhet at the soonest.

I think the main problem is that they were reluctant to print cards that are specifically "anti-vehicle" because they would be completely dead outside of the block, and sideboard cards at best unless every in-block deck ran vehicles.

As a result, they tried to make the anti-vehicle cards more "general" utility sort of cards, but the problem with that is that the play cycle of vehicles doesn't really open up any particularly interesting general interactions, right? Like, what can you do? "Destroy target tapped creature and target artifact creature" at instant speed? I mean, it works, but aside from the target restriction on the value portion it isn't even that explicitly "anti-vehicle" as it is just "anti-Kaladesh".

So, you know: you either print cards that are auto-dead outside the block and risk being dead in a lot of match-ups even inside the block, you print cards that have just huge amounts of artifact hate on them, or you do neither and vehicles end up being boring and mostly non-interactive. I'm not sure Option #3 wasn't the best of the bunch.

(Aside from hidden Option #4: never print vehicles in their current form to begin with.)
Last edited by Imperfected; 01-02-2017 at 02:49 PM.
Yeef
Member
(01-02-2017, 02:25 PM)
Yeef's Avatar
As someone who primarily plays limited, I love vehicles. They add a lot of interesting decision-making in terms of combat and when to use your removal. For constructed, I'm not that big on them. Cultivator's Caravan is a cool design, but the rest of the ones that see play in constructed are pretty annoying.
Joe Molotov
(01-02-2017, 02:45 PM)
Joe Molotov's Avatar
Gonna get serious about Modern this year. I need to start buying staples. First goal, get a playset of Noble Hierarchs.
Santiako
Member
(01-02-2017, 02:48 PM)
Santiako's Avatar

Originally Posted by A Serious Man

So what's the consensus on Kaladesh? I watched BBD win Worlds and then had to totally check out due to work/life.

Absolutely stellar limited set. Best one since KTK.
charlequin
Loving Husband. Caring Admin. Secret Octopus.
(01-02-2017, 02:49 PM)
charlequin's Avatar

Originally Posted by Toxi

I feel like the end of Rath and Storm/Exodus was the first moment when the Weatherlight story dropped the ball (with Crovax offing Mirri). Then came Mercadian Masques where everyone was stupid, and Nemesis where any potential Crovax had was ruined... And then came Invasion block, where the Weatherlight story just became a colossal piece of shit.

I think there was a serious mismatch of the basic concept of the Weatherlight crew and the scenarios they were put in, especially in Invasion block where you had this over-the-top grim storyline.

Yep, this is exactly, exactly my position. The weird insistence on killing off all the cast is just so bizarre (especially given how now they're all the way in the opposite direction of keeping people alive for brand equity) and the characters are just an awful fit for the story they're in. It's like putting the crew of the Enterprise into Hellraiser.

Originally Posted by Yeef

As someone who primarily plays limited, I love vehicles. They add a lot of interesting decision-making in terms of combat and when to use your removal. For constructed, I'm not that big on them. Cultivator's Caravan is a cool design, but the rest of the ones that see play in constructed are pretty annoying.

Yeah, frankly I think Copter is dragging the whole mechanic down. Cultivator's Caravan is a cool card. Skysovereign and Cruiser are great, fair, and fun cards in Vintage. Vehicles work very well in the limited format at a certain frequency.

For those who weren't around at the time, this is actually a lot like the issue with equipment in Mirrodin -- i.e. it's a new artifact mechanic which provides a very efficient board presence that's difficult to get rid of normally, and as a result it's overpushed and awkward to start with.
Last edited by charlequin; 01-02-2017 at 02:55 PM.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(01-02-2017, 02:56 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar
Vehicles are fine. I enjoy playing with them in casual and limited, the only two formats I personally engage with
OnPoint
Member
(01-02-2017, 03:32 PM)
OnPoint's Avatar

Originally Posted by Imperfected

As a result, they tried to make the anti-vehicle cards more "general" utility sort of cards, but the problem with that is that the play cycle of vehicles doesn't really open up any particularly interesting general interactions, right? Like, what can you do? "Destroy target tapped creature and target artifact creature" at instant speed? I mean, it works, but aside from the target restriction on the value portion it isn't even that explicitly "anti-vehicle" as it is just "anti-Kaladesh".

So, you know: you either print cards that are auto-dead outside the block and risk being dead in a lot of match-ups even inside the block, you print cards that have just huge amounts of artifact hate on them, or you do neither and vehicles end up being boring and mostly non-interactive. I'm not sure Option #3 wasn't the best of the bunch.

The easiest solution would be artifact hate. But it hits so much relevant stuff right now that they seemed reluctant to print any. Even something like "Destroy target non-creature artifact" at instant speed and a decent cost would be incredibly useful here. But there's nothing worth playing that fits that description. I don't think vehicles are the biggest issue in standard, I'm just zeroing in on them for example's sake
charlequin
Loving Husband. Caring Admin. Secret Octopus.
(01-02-2017, 03:36 PM)
charlequin's Avatar

Originally Posted by OnPoint

The easiest solution would be artifact hate.

Yeah I think overly poor answers are pretty consistently the problem with everything bad in the current Standard environment.
Hero
Member
(01-02-2017, 03:40 PM)
Hero's Avatar
Does red even have an efficient artifact removal spell in standard right now?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Member
(01-02-2017, 03:43 PM)
Familienoberhauptvogel's Avatar

Originally Posted by Hero

Does red even have an efficient artifact removal spell in standard right now?

ahaha

Ooccoo
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:09 PM)
Ooccoo's Avatar


red13th
(01-02-2017, 04:10 PM)
red13th's Avatar
zzzz slow first day so far.
most fun card is the Dwarf that draws a card when you cast Equipment, Auras or Vehicles.

OnPoint
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:10 PM)
OnPoint's Avatar

Originally Posted by Ooccoo

Hah so close. It'll likely have to do.
Santiako
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:13 PM)
Santiako's Avatar
Chord of Calling for artifact is going to do some broken ass shit lol
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(01-02-2017, 04:13 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar
Improvise feels like a bad idea...

Stop. Making. Cost. Reduction. Mechanics
red13th
(01-02-2017, 04:14 PM)
red13th's Avatar

Originally Posted by Santiako

Chord of Calling for artifact is going to do some broken ass shit lol

it doesn't really allow you to bypass the triple blue unlike convoke... idk.
Ooccoo
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:14 PM)
Ooccoo's Avatar

Originally Posted by Santiako

Chord of Calling for artifact is going to do some broken ass shit lol

How so? UUU is a huge as you can't pay colored costs unlike Chord. Best you can do is probably tutor for Lotus Bloom. It'll shine in Commander though.
Ooccoo
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:15 PM)
Ooccoo's Avatar

Originally Posted by The Technomancer

Improvise feels like a bad idea...

Stop. Making. Cost. Reduction. Mechanics

The improvise cards are like SUPER safe. Unless they print something crazy, it's perfectly fine. Affinity for Artifacts isn't a problem from a design perspective.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:17 PM)
Familienoberhauptvogel's Avatar

did they really have to add a 3rd U when it doesn't work like convoke?
Last edited by Familienoberhauptvogel; 01-02-2017 at 04:19 PM.
OnPoint
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:18 PM)
OnPoint's Avatar

Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

did they really need to add a 3rd U when it doesn't work like convoke?

It's like poetry, it rhymes.
Joe Molotov
(01-02-2017, 04:18 PM)
Joe Molotov's Avatar
UUUgu~
bigkrev
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:19 PM)
bigkrev's Avatar
I like the 1 mana vehicle. It's probably not even playable in limited, but it's something different from the other ones we have seen

Improvise is boring to the point where maybe they shouldn't have done it.

There IS precedentfor a 3 mana Disenchant being standard playable, but, uh, it was this


So yeah, we are still super fucked if they make a single Artifact that's really good in this set.

Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

did they really have to add a 3rd U when it doesn't work like convoke?

Yes because they know what they are doing is something that has led to broken cards before so they decided to make it an Intro Pack rare intentionally so they don't run the risk of needing to ban cards
Familienoberhauptvogel
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:20 PM)
Familienoberhauptvogel's Avatar
That vehicle should have been a grocery store on the go. Get it, 7/11

Originally Posted by bigkrev

Yes because they know what they are doing is something that has led to broken cards before so they decided to make it an Intro Pack rare intentionally so they don't run the risk of needing to ban cards

there is a spot between chord and this, they already were taking steps to prevent the former and while an artifact set making a ton of creatures remains easier than artifacts.
Last edited by Familienoberhauptvogel; 01-02-2017 at 04:23 PM.
Ooccoo
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:21 PM)
Ooccoo's Avatar

Originally Posted by bigkrev

I like the 1 mana vehicle. It's probably not even playable in limited, but it's something different from the other ones we have seen

Improvise is boring to the point where maybe they shouldn't have done it.

There IS precedentfor a 3 mana Disenchant being standard playable, but, uh, it was this


So yeah, we are still super fucked if they make a single Artifact that's really good in this set.


Yes because they know what they are doing is something that has led to broken cards before so they decided to make it an Intro Pack rare intentionally so they don't run the risk of needing to ban cards

Red might get something this set.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(01-02-2017, 04:21 PM)
The Technomancer's Avatar
Ughhh I just wish the Dreadnaught had Trample. Without it its almost certainly a trap, but I'm still going to be tempted by "well its not like I usually have a 1 drop anyway..."
Santiako
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:28 PM)
Santiako's Avatar
I was thinking of commander, where I UUU is no big deal.
Hero
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:33 PM)
Hero's Avatar
It's so dumb that red doesn't have good artifact removal right now.
bigkrev
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:35 PM)
bigkrev's Avatar

Originally Posted by Sheentak

I'm coming from yugioh and cardfight vanguard, I know the basics of magic and how to play but I've never really dived in other than a few pre built decks.
Is this a good product to get in the game? As in starting to play at locals and pre releases or is there another up coming set I should check out? Should I wait till the next block?

Any set is fine to jump into, especially now that blocks are 6 months instead of a year. If you give a shit about the story it's not that hard to go back and read the old stuff, and playing limited will give you a mixture of both Kaladesh and the new set.

If you know the basics of Magic and have played other card games before and know the main differences in their rules from Magic (ie, knowing that you can only attack the other player, and not their creatures), you should be able to show up at your stores pre-release and have a good time.
Llyrwenne
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:36 PM)
Llyrwenne's Avatar


So it's going to be a cycle ( maybe not a full cycle? )?

I mean, nothing can possibly go wrong with free spells and casting cost reduction mechanics, right?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:36 PM)
Familienoberhauptvogel's Avatar

Originally Posted by Santiako

I was thinking of commander, where I UUU is no big deal.

is it even that good in commander? Most commonly played artifacts are already mana rocks and triple of one colour isn't that simple in tri coloured decks or more.

It takes a bunch of hoops to jump through to become particularly great.
red13th
(01-02-2017, 04:37 PM)
red13th's Avatar

Colourless Time Walk. :o
bigkrev
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:38 PM)
bigkrev's Avatar

Originally Posted by Hero

It's so dumb that red doesn't have good artifact removal right now.

It's so dumb that Red doesn't have a Lightning Strike right now
It's so dumb that Red doesn't have effective small creatures right now
It's so dumb that Red doesn't have even bad artifact removal (like Shatter)


Red winning those 2 Pro Tours killed the color in Standard forever :(
Hero
Member
(01-02-2017, 04:41 PM)
Hero's Avatar

Originally Posted by red13th

Colourless Time Walk. :o

Hmm, since it exiles it might not be overpowered.

Side note, does anything else think it's really clunky how multiple Energy symbols are used when it gets past four or so?

Originally Posted by bigkrev

It's so dumb that Red doesn't have a Lightning Strike right now
It's so dumb that Red doesn't have effective small creatures right now
It's so dumb that Red doesn't have even bad artifact removal (like Shatter)


Red winning those 2 Pro Tours killed the color in Standard forever :(

Not sure if you're mocking me or agreeing with me. Lightning Strike would help stop copter shenanigans. :/

And yeah, I guess Wizards didn't want red winning anymore PTs lol.
red13th
(01-02-2017, 04:59 PM)
red13th's Avatar

seems nice.
Llyrwenne
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:00 PM)
Llyrwenne's Avatar

Originally Posted by red13th

seems nice.

Works nicely with Fetchlands in Modern.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:02 PM)
Familienoberhauptvogel's Avatar

Originally Posted by red13th

seems nice.

I'm in love, kills grim flayer delirium or not. Kills copter, I won't have to run galvanic bombardement anymore.
Santiako
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:06 PM)
Santiako's Avatar
Nice. Finally a good black 1 mana kill spell for modern.
OnPoint
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:07 PM)
OnPoint's Avatar

Originally Posted by red13th

fatal push.jpg

seems nice.

This is awesome.
Supast4r
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:11 PM)
Supast4r's Avatar

Originally Posted by red13th

seems nice.

the best removal that modern has gotten in a LONG TIME. I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo excited to play this in faeries that you have no idea.
Infinite Stars
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:12 PM)
Infinite Stars's Avatar
Fatal push is literally amazing for modern. Fetches turn it into a 1 mana kill Virtually anything in the format.
jph139
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:12 PM)
jph139's Avatar
Man, seeing that Dreadnought and Fatal Push back to back... that's gonna lead to some crushed dreams in Limited.
Santiako
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:12 PM)
Santiako's Avatar

Originally Posted by Supast4r

the best removal that modern has gotten in a LONG TIME. I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo excited to play this in faeries that you have no idea.

Best since the format's inception. Easy top 3 behind bolt and path. Card is seriously amazing.
OnPoint
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:16 PM)
OnPoint's Avatar

Originally Posted by Santiako

Best since the format's inception. Easy top 3 behind bolt and path. Card is seriously amazing.

Dismember is also real good though. I might put that over it.
brainzelda
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:16 PM)

Originally Posted by jph139

Man, seeing that Dreadnought and Fatal Push back to back... that's gonna lead to some crushed dreams in Limited.

Yup. I play exclusively Limited and thank God that removal spell is rare.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:19 PM)
Familienoberhauptvogel's Avatar

Originally Posted by brainzelda

Yup. I play exclusively Limited and thank God that removal spell is rare.

it's uncommon

Gonna order 12 or so right away. I had trouble getting enough unlicensed disintegration and Aether Hubs and such.
Last edited by Familienoberhauptvogel; 01-02-2017 at 05:23 PM.
red13th
(01-02-2017, 05:20 PM)
red13th's Avatar
Uncommon actually!

It's like a better Smother when kicked for half the price. Or 2/3rds of a Smother when unkicked.
Ooccoo
Member
(01-02-2017, 05:23 PM)
Ooccoo's Avatar
Didn't think we'd see a Smother variant in this set. Color me surprised.

Thread Tools