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Ithil
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(03-11-2017, 01:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blader

lmao, I forgot all about this.

That season was one of the worst things I've ever seen on TV. How many fucking times did Charlotte Rampling say the word psychopath?

Also psychopaths were like superhumans or something.
Hierophant
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(03-11-2017, 01:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by serenewarfare

You guys know that Rand being white is part of his character, right? And a big part of his relationship with Cage.

Like yeah, they could have cast an Asian actor just for the sake of it, but Iron Fist is not an Asian character.

doesn't seem like this show took advantage of that character study

the marvel Netflix shows have played fast and loose with all sorts of canon, they could have had a new take or perspective on the character on danny rand

Honestly if the show wasn't bad, I wouldn't be complaining as much but having a mighty whitey thing in this day and age is pretty dumb
wandering
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(03-11-2017, 01:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by serenewarfare

You guys know that Rand being white is part of his character, right? And a big part of his relationship with Cage.

Like yeah, they could have cast an Asian actor just for the sake of it, but Iron Fist is not an Asian character.

Oh great, here we go again. Try looking at the older threads about the casting.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(03-11-2017, 01:50 AM)
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After Luke Cage, the previews and the reviews I'm not even going to give this a chance.
serenewarfare
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(03-11-2017, 01:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by wandering

Oh great, here we go again.

I'm serious. What is the argument for making the character Asian in this instance? Representation for the sake of representation? Or because there are actually good ideas and perspectives to explore with it? Because if Marvel makes that decision for the latter reason, then that's great and interesting. But if it's the former driving their choice, it's a bad idea.

Originally Posted by Hierophant

doesn't seem like this show took advantage of that character study

the marvel Netflix shows have played fast and loose with all sorts of canon, they could have had a new take or perspective on the character on danny rand

Honestly if the show wasn't bad, I wouldn't be complaining as much but having a mighty whitey thing in this day and age is pretty dumb

Yeah, the show seemingly sucks and plays that angle, which is no good.

I think a radically different take on the character could have been interesting, but that's not the route they chose. And once it was clear they weren't going radically different, I don't see the merit in casting an Asian actor just for the sake of it.
Hierophant
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(03-11-2017, 01:53 AM)
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tfw every single Asian person is the same in a lot of people's eyes, especially asians who grew up in the west don't even speak Chinese or anything and haven't been to the home country at any point in their entire lives

oh well at least I can go out with Asian girls without being told I have yellow fever

now going out with a white girl, you get a bit more flak for that
Hierophant
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(03-11-2017, 02:00 AM)
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inhumans is gonna be ass

punisher will be pretty good

quote me on this
Hierophant
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(03-11-2017, 02:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by serenewarfare



Yeah, the show seemingly sucks and plays that angle, which is no good.

I think a radically different take on the character could have been interesting, but that's not the route they chose. And once it was clear they weren't going radically different, I don't see the merit in casting an Asian actor just for the sake of it.

what it all comes down to, asian actor or no, they could have alleviated all of the concerns about race if they made a good show that played with the character of danny rand

they didn't make a good show so this criticism will naturally come out as a "what if"
serenewarfare
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(03-11-2017, 02:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hierophant

what it all comes down to, asian actor or no, they could have alleviated all of the concerns about race if they made a good show that played with the character of danny rand

they didn't make a good show so this criticism will naturally come out as a "what if"

I agree completely.
Kin5290
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(03-11-2017, 02:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by serenewarfare

You guys know that Rand being white is part of his character, right? And a big part of his relationship with Cage.

Like yeah, they could have cast an Asian actor just for the sake of it, but Iron Fist is not an Asian character.

There's nothing that white Danny Rand needs to do that Asian-American Danny Rand couldn't also do. Plus, Asian-American Danny Rand can do more, because an American-born Asian American guy, fully Americanized, being thrust into the culture of or like that of his ancestors, is a story that has rarely been told before.

Plot idea: Danny Rand is the child of Asian immigrants who built up a business empire. Rand itself is an Americanized name adopted by the first generation immigrants in the face of anti-Asian racism. Danny is still a guy who, once he gets his wealth back, can impulse buy an Lamborghini. But the story and character threads that can be explored are more, not less.
Last edited by Kin5290; 03-11-2017 at 02:57 AM.
MC_Hify
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(03-11-2017, 03:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kin5290

Plot idea: Danny Rand is the child of Asian immigrants who built up a business empire. Rand itself is an Americanized name adopted by the first generation immigrants in the face of anti-Asian racism. Danny is still a guy who, once he gets his wealth back, can impulse buy an Lamborghini. But the story and character threads that can be explored are more, not less.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. But if the fight scenes are ass, it won't really matter who plays him.
wandering
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(03-11-2017, 03:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by serenewarfare

I'm serious. What is the argument for making the character Asian in this instance? Representation for the sake of representation? Or because there are actually good ideas and perspectives to explore with it? Because if Marvel makes that decision for the latter reason, then that's great and interesting. But if it's the former driving their choice, it's a bad idea.

Sure. I'd say it can be both. The predominant issue is that the "mighty whitey" theme cuts deeper than just representation; it's a phenomenon with ugly historical connotations exacerbated by the lack of equity that continues to plague racial relations in the US. The lack of leading roles for Asian American actors just further problematizes that issue. I think criticizing "representation for the sake of representation" is a shallow argument, but that's besides the point.

But an Asian American Iron Fist does in fact open up valuable and meaningful narrative perspectives. It becomes a chance to show that Asians are not a monolith, and that the Asian American experience is distinct and conflicting and challenging. It becomes the opportunity to navigate a crisis of heritage and identity, rather than a simple culture clash. Stranded abroad, lost in translation stories are a dime a dozen. The story of an individual caught between worlds and alienated from both is fruitful ground.

Not to mention the intersection of privilege and racial identity is another compelling theme. The story of a privileged rich white guy, is, let's be honest, very well-tread ground. The story of a privileged rich Asian American however has the potential to explore the model minority stereotype, aspirations towards "whiteness," the clash between race and class, conflict between non-white demographics, and more.

And the last point provides a really interesting foundation for the relationship between Iron Fist and Luke Cage. Their friendship is undercut by the tension between a rich white man juxtaposed with a black man from the streets. But imagine the tension between two people of color, one far more privileged than the other. That kind of suspicion and discord really does exist between the black and Asian American communities; some black people think that Asians have sold out to white supremacy, some Asians think black people haven't pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. That kind of conflict is rarely ever explored and would be really interesting to see on the screen.
Last edited by wandering; 03-11-2017 at 03:52 AM. Reason: grammar
aly
Member
(03-11-2017, 03:12 AM)
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Still can't believe that Scott Buck has managed to ruin two properties I liked. Glad to not care much about the Inhumans but still. Hope the Defenders can turn Danny around. Also kinda wonder whats going through actors/producers heads at the moments and if nythign gets changed.
dancingphlower
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(03-11-2017, 03:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by serenewarfare

I'm serious. What is the argument for making the character Asian in this instance? Representation for the sake of representation? Or because there are actually good ideas and perspectives to explore with it? Because if Marvel makes that decision for the latter reason, then that's great and interesting. But if it's the former driving their choice, it's a bad idea.



Yeah, the show seemingly sucks and plays that angle, which is no good.

I think a radically different take on the character could have been interesting, but that's not the route they chose. And once it was clear they weren't going radically different, I don't see the merit in casting an Asian actor just for the sake of it.

http://comicsalliance.com/iron-fist-...-white-savior/

http://www.vulture.com/2016/02/why-s...-american.html

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/26/11121378/iron-fist-racism

These articles do a pretty good job of explaining the outrage and why people felt that changing Danny to Asian American (emphasis on American, as opposed to just Asian) would be a good idea.
King Gilga
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(03-11-2017, 04:03 AM)
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I think I'll still give it a chance.

I mean, it can't possibly be worse than arrow season 3/4 can it?
suzu
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(03-11-2017, 04:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by wandering

.

Basically, this entire post.

Also re: tropes.. when it comes down to it: All Asians Know Martial Arts > Mighty Whitey. :P
Kin5290
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(03-11-2017, 04:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by wandering

Sure. I'd say it can be both. The predominant issue is that the "mighty whitey" theme cuts deeper than just representation; it's a phenomenon with ugly historical connotations exacerbated by the lack of equity that continues to plague racial relations in the US. The lack of leading roles for Asian American actors just further problematizes that issue. I think criticizing "representation for the sake of representation" is a shallow argument, but that's besides the point.

But an Asian American Iron Fist does in fact open up valuable and meaningful narrative perspectives. It becomes a chance to show that Asians are not a monolith, and that the Asian American experience is distinct and conflicting and challenging. It becomes the opportunity to navigate a crisis of heritage and identity, rather than a simple culture clash. Stranded abroad, lost in translation stories are a dime a dozen. The story of an individual caught between worlds and alienated from both is fruitful ground.

Not to mention the intersection of privilege and racial identity is another compelling theme. The story of a privileged rich white guy, is, let's be honest, very well-tread ground. The story of a privileged rich Asian American however has the potential to explore the model minority stereotype, aspirations towards "whiteness," the clash between race and class, conflict between non-white demographics, and more.

And the last point provides a really interesting foundation for the relationship between Iron Fist and Luke Cage. Their friendship is undercut by the tension between a rich white man juxtaposed with a black man from the streets. But imagine the tension between two people of color, one far more privileged than the other. That kind of suspicion and discord really does exist between the black and Asian American communities; some black people think that Asians have sold out to white supremacy, some Asians think black people haven't pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. That kind of conflict is rarely ever explored and would be really interesting to see on the screen.

This is a great post.

Also, there's the Asian American appropriation of black "gangster" culture that was a thing back when I was younger, at least.
serenewarfare
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(03-11-2017, 05:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by wandering

Sure. I'd say it can be both. The predominant issue is that the "mighty whitey" theme cuts deeper than just representation; it's a phenomenon with ugly historical connotations exacerbated by the lack of equity that continues to plague racial relations in the US. The lack of leading roles for Asian American actors just further problematizes that issue. I think criticizing "representation for the sake of representation" is a shallow argument, but that's besides the point.

But an Asian American Iron Fist does in fact open up valuable and meaningful narrative perspectives. It becomes a chance to show that Asians are not a monolith, and that the Asian American experience is distinct and conflicting and challenging. It becomes the opportunity to navigate a crisis of heritage and identity, rather than a simple culture clash. Stranded abroad, lost in translation stories are a dime a dozen. The story of an individual caught between worlds and alienated from both is fruitful ground.

Not to mention the intersection of privilege and racial identity is another compelling theme. The story of a privileged rich white guy, is, let's be honest, very well-tread ground. The story of a privileged rich Asian American however has the potential to explore the model minority stereotype, aspirations towards "whiteness," the clash between race and class, conflict between non-white demographics, and more.

And the last point provides a really interesting foundation for the relationship between Iron Fist and Luke Cage. Their friendship is undercut by the tension between a rich white man juxtaposed with a black man from the streets. But imagine the tension between two people of color, one far more privileged than the other. That kind of suspicion and discord really does exist between the black and Asian American communities; some black people think that Asians have sold out to white supremacy, some Asians think black people haven't pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. That kind of conflict is rarely ever explored and would be really interesting to see on the screen.

I agree with you on all fronts. And that's kind of my point. Marvel didn't want to do radically different, so casting an Asian actor wouldn't have suddenly changed that.

My only point is that the same story they are telling now with the only change being "Iron Fist is Asian instead" wouldn't be any better. It has to be crafted with the idea of wanting to be something new and interesting.
Fixed2BeBroken
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(03-11-2017, 07:43 AM)
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Everything I thought would happen with this show came true.

so many people need to eat crow based on other threads. like seriously, I knew the mighty whitey trope and white guy gets the asian girl was gonn a happen. just so obvious.
Fancyarcher
Member
(03-11-2017, 07:45 AM)
I might check out an episode or two but I'm definitely not 100% board on IF as I was say, several months ago.
Kin5290
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(03-11-2017, 07:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by Fixed2BeBroken

Everything I thought would happen with this show came true.

so many people need to eat crow based on other threads. like seriously, I knew the mighty whitey trope and white guy gets the asian girl was gonn a happen. just so obvious.

I wouldn't even have cared about Danny getting with Colleen if they had written the character to avoid any cultural appropriation traps and humbled him a lot.

But no, they need Danny to be special by being better at Asian cultural things than every other Asian on the screen.
PsychBat!
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(03-11-2017, 10:52 AM)
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Honestly.... I think it would've been cool if Danny Rand was black. No joke.
plushyp
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(03-11-2017, 10:56 AM)
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The show was doomed when they employed Scott "Treadmill" Buck. Wonder if we'll see something similar with the child actor playing Danny lol
Last edited by plushyp; 03-11-2017 at 11:03 AM.
CloudWolf
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(03-11-2017, 11:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by plushyp

The show was doomed when they employed Scott "Treadmill" Buck. Wonder if we'll see something similar with the child actor playing Danny lol

Show kid Danny being beaten by a treadmill, then after he gets back from training he beats a treadmill into a pulp. It's perfect.
gundamkyoukai
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(03-11-2017, 12:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ezalc

I suffered through Luke Cage and Jessica Jones and Daredevil season 2. I'm going to watch this shit too. It was my most anticipated and goddamn it I want to see how much they fuck it up.

This is me also .
After DD season one all these other marvel netflix shows have been crap but still going to watch it .
DeathyBoy
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(03-11-2017, 12:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hierophant

tfw every single Asian person is the same in a lot of people's eyes, especially asians who grew up in the west don't even speak Chinese or anything and haven't been to the home country at any point in their entire lives

oh well at least I can go out with Asian girls without being told I have yellow fever

now going out with a white girl, you get a bit more flak for that

I still remember back when Lost was praised for having an Asian male in Jin who didn't know martial arts. And then in S3 they revealed he knew martial arts.
Litan
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(03-11-2017, 01:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by wandering

.

What a missed opportunity this show is.
caliph95
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(03-11-2017, 01:17 PM)
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Honestly regardless of the race the show would have been shit considering the problems go way beyond that. I have never seen Dexter but considering the hate the seasons Buck wrote by fans and critics alike and the insistance on being grounded. Also the fact marvel had no idea what to do with it., this was dead on arrvial
TheOddOne
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(03-12-2017, 10:47 AM)
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- Vulture: The Lesson of Marvel’s Iron Fist: Superhero Fiction Needs to Change or Die.

It may have seemed fine to crank out another Marvel Netflix show that feels like the brand’s past outings, but the critical drubbing that Iron Fist has received is in no small part due to the fact that it’s so stale and unoriginal. The reason the Marvel Cinematic Universe succeeded initially was because it offered a bevy of ideas and characters that were somewhat familiar, but also fresh and unlike anything else we’d seen in superhero filmmaking. That mix of comfortingly old and boldly new is necessary for any brand — or, indeed, any genre — to go the distance. The failure of Iron Fist should serve as a cautionary tale: It’s a time to change or die, and whichever studio learns it doesn’t always have to maintain a white-knuckle grip on what’s been done before will be the one that pulls ahead. Reimagination is just as important as imagination in superhero fiction. It’s time to stop fearing it.

- Verge: Iron Fist isn't just racially uncomfortable, it's also a boring show.

Recently, Finn Jones quit Twitter after getting into a heated debate about representation in general, and Iron Fist specifically. He returned yesterday to release a statement: “We have gone to great lengths to represent a diverse cast with an intelligent, socially progressive storyline.” In truth, whatever he, Scott Buck, and Marvel attempted in getting this series right doesn’t go far enough. The end result is more often a boring, confused, and offensive mess of a series, one that’s as bad at diversity as it is telling a story that superhero fans will enjoy. It lacks the impact it so desperately needed after the successes of Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. And that’s a shame. Fans feared the worst when the series was announced, and all their fears came true.

- Maureen Ryan at Variety: TV Review: ‘Marvel’s Iron Fist’ on Netflix.

Not one element of this plodding piece works. The action scenes lack spark, snap, and originality. None of the flat, by-the-numbers characters makes any lasting impression. And as origin stories go, the tale of Danny Rand (Finn Jones), at least as rendered by this creative team, is about as exciting as a slice of Velveeta cheese left out in the sun too long. It takes forever for anything to happen on “Iron Fist,” and as it stumbles along, the uninspired production design, unexceptional cinematography, and painful dialogue fail to distract the viewer from the overall lack of depth, detail, or momentum.

Good luck, bingers: Getting through two episodes was a challenge.

- EW: Iron Fist deserves to flunk out of the TV dojo.

Marvel’s Iron Fist isn’t just the wimpiest punch ever thrown by the world’s mightiest superhero factory. The new Netflix binge swings and misses so bad that it spins itself around and slaps itself silly with a weirdly flaccid hand. But even that might be generous. “Swing and a miss” implies effort. Iron Fist — devoid of vision, lacking in executional chops — barely even tries. It assumes its own marvelousness and proceeds tediously from there, offering few satisfactions for any possible audience. The media was only given six of the season’s 13 episodes for review, but I was snoozing after two and ready to check out after three. This is yellow belt drama that deserves to flunk out of the TV dojo.

- LA Weekly: The Tragedy of Marvel’s Iron Fist.

That the new Netflix/Marvel series repeats this premise is the least of its problems. Worse, it simply isn’t entertaining. Each of the six episodes made available to critics proves a taxing affair where you’re asked to invest in characters so thinly constructed they could be cardboard cutouts cleverly lit to resemble human beings. It demonstrates the limits of the Marvel brand and how desperately the superhero genre needs to evolve.

caliph95
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(03-12-2017, 10:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheOddOne

Review shooting gallery.

Saya
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(03-12-2017, 11:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheOddOne

- EW: Iron Fist deserves to flunk out of the TV dojo.

Marvel’s Iron Fist isn’t just the wimpiest punch ever thrown by the world’s mightiest superhero factory. The new Netflix binge swings and misses so bad that it spins itself around and slaps itself silly with a weirdly flaccid hand. But even that might be generous. “Swing and a miss” implies effort. Iron Fist — devoid of vision, lacking in executional chops — barely even tries. It assumes its own marvelousness and proceeds tediously from there, offering few satisfactions for any possible audience. The media was only given six of the season’s 13 episodes for review, but I was snoozing after two and ready to check out after three. This is yellow belt drama that deserves to flunk out of the TV dojo.

Damn.
TheOddOne
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(03-12-2017, 11:07 AM)
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We still have a week for more reviews to drop.

YAAAAAAAAAI BOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
(03-12-2017, 11:20 AM)
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Sweet fancy Moses. Guess those Marvel Checks didn't clear this time. Wow
caliph95
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(03-12-2017, 11:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Grizzlyjin

Sweet fancy Moses. Guess those Marvel Checks didn't clear this time. Wow

Guess the reviewers were asking for too much money.
Mengetsu
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(03-12-2017, 11:22 AM)
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I can't believe what I'm reading....I mean I do but, I don't want to. This should have been an easy no brainer of a show to do. It's fucking Iron Fist for goodness sake! Embrace his powers not tip toe around it to keep him "grounded" How do they even mess up the fighting in this show that's mostly about martial arts and make that boring?!! :(
GravityInsanity
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(03-12-2017, 11:25 AM)
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- EW: Iron Fist deserves to flunk out of the TV dojo.

Disney right now.
Einchy
semen stains the mountaintops
(03-12-2017, 11:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by GravityInsanity

Disney right now.

Time to fire Ike.
caliph95
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(03-12-2017, 11:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Einchy

Time to fire Ike.

Probably can't but they can kick off Scott Buck.
ArgyleReptile
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(03-12-2017, 11:40 AM)
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All I wanted was a modern tribute to the Shaw Brothers with no Mighty Whitey Trope. Was that too much to ask?
AlfonzoPalutena
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(03-12-2017, 11:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by caliph95

Probably can't but they can kick off Scott Buck.

They should stop production on The Inhumans, right now.

Find someone else, anyone else, or just scrap it.

Agents of Shield has done such a great job slowly introducing Inhuman lore over the past couple years. For that to result in a show with a 14% on Rotten Tomatoes would insulting.

I hope Buck gets it right, but Black Bolt's costume already seems like that Bryan Singer-esque tendency to make the show as toned down and realistic as possible. Buck did it in Iron Fist going by the reviews.
S1kkZ
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(03-12-2017, 11:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by Einchy

Time to fire Ike.

more like:

time to...

- fire the showrunner
- give the main actor more than 3 weeks to prepare for the role
- maybe cast some people that actually have a background in martial arts?
- fire the fucking showrunner
- dont sit on the show for 3 years and then suddenly decide: well, we need to shit out iron fist before the defenders airs!

this thing was doomed from the start. next up: the inhumans.
Saya
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(03-12-2017, 11:53 AM)
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Marvel: We need a showrunner for Iron Fist.

Scott Buck:
caliph95
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(03-12-2017, 11:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by Saya

Marvel: We need a showrunner for Iron Fist.

Scott Buck:

We need an acotr

Finn Jones:
Hierophant
Member
(03-12-2017, 12:26 PM)
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a bunch of people on the marvel cinematic subreddit are desperately trying to play off the bad reviews as "reviewers only caring about the racial issues"

this is amazing

must be how dc fans felt
ElBoxyBrown
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(03-12-2017, 12:29 PM)
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How badly did Buck destroy Dexter? Was it in good condition before he took over?
ZeroX03
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(03-12-2017, 01:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

How badly did Buck destroy Dexter? Was it in good condition before he took over?

It wasn't perfect and had just had an off season where most of the core writers had left, but it went from fluctuating between pretty good to great to Buck's first season showrunning (S6) being basically worthless trash and the lowest rated by far. The finale of the show is legendarily awful too. The gap in quality from the show's prime to Buck's years is massive.

He seems to be fine as a staff writer but can't lead a show to save himself.
PHOENIXZERO
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(03-12-2017, 01:40 PM)
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I know I'm not alone in this being the first of these Netflix Marvel shows that I'm not hyped about, low expectations have been in place pretty much since Danny's casting was announced.
KonradLaw
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(03-12-2017, 01:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

How badly did Buck destroy Dexter? Was it in good condition before he took over?

First four seasons are genuinelly great TV. S5 was when new showrunner took over, but it was still nice. Well directed, good villains etc. It's biggest problem was that it started to feel like the show was stuck in one place, instead of moving forward. Then Buck took over as a showrunner in S6 and it jumped from cliff. It was just plain bad. Not only the story was bad, but for the first time ever Dexter had weak villain. Plot holes become enormous and were ignored and the whole thing looked like crap, the direction went to drains
Joni
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(03-12-2017, 01:43 PM)
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I love how all these reviews kinda assume that they were hard on the previous shows as well.

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