• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF
  • Like

JamesHolden
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 01:49 AM)
JamesHolden's Avatar
I sympathize with the disappointed, but this also makes clear to me that games like Mass Effect mean so many different things to different players. Huge opportunity​ to make a special game, huge burden not to screw up all the details.
tootie923
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:49 AM)
tootie923's Avatar
Copied from the other thread. So it's 2017 and this is still happening. I can understand back in 2010 when they were still dipping their toes in the water, but now?

Originally Posted by Harlequin
The problem isn't just the achievement, it's the picture you get when you put all of those things together. I mean, of course, straight guys will get more options, I was never expecting them not to, but there are so many things that just scream half-arsed afterthought and "gays are second-class citizens" here. We've got less than half the number of options that straight guys have, we don't have any squadmate option (who get significantly more exposition, dialogue, etc. than non-suadmates), we don't have any option with a unique face, all of the gay male sex scenes are apparently fade-to-black whereas quite a few of the others are fully animated and include nudity and they put an achievement in the game that everyone but gay males can get without switching to a different gender or orientation (which in and of itself wouldn't be a problem but the fact that only gay men are forced to do it makes it one).

Guess Who
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:49 AM)
Guess Who's Avatar

Originally Posted by Stumpokapow

Allow me to suggest that the idea probably isn't to turn your gay character straight, but to experience the game playing separately as gay and straight characters on different playthroughs.

Consider the claim that "I can't 100% the game without playing as someone I don't want to" -- the same would be true if they had an achievement that required you to complete the game as both a male and a female character. Or if the game had separate achievements for romancing each companion but you didn't like a character. Or we could broaden it from sort of "descriptive representation" to playstyle--if the game required you to play as a Renegade or whatever the ME4 equivalent is and you didn't like to do so--or even to skill like requiring you to beat it on a frustratingly hard difficulty, or even further to gameplay preferences like achievements for playing different character builds, or playing the multiplayer... or the perennial complaint that people who boycott DLC hate when DLC has achievements. All of these being ways that a player might feel frustrated by achievements as a completion checker, forced to choose between 100%ing the game and playing true to the way they'd naturally play the game.

Of course this does not mean that players need to be happy with the gay romance options or representation in the game, it is totally plausible that they dropped the ball. And I obviously support representation of all kinds in gaming and especially in role-playing games where connections to the characters are so important. So the fact that you're saying the two male gay romance options are generic NPCs is a bummer, and definitely worth a conversation.

I simply mean anchoring the argument around a completion achievement seems strange to me. I don't think in principle, an achievement that requires you to roleplay in a way that you did not intend to roleplay is a dealbreaker.

The problem with "maybe they want you to play multiple orientations for multiple playthroughs" is that it doesn't apply to any other orientation than "gay male Ryder," because all other orientations have enough romance options to do this in one playthrough.
Last edited by Guess Who; 03-21-2017 at 01:52 AM.
Harlequin
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:49 AM)
I'll copy-paste my other two posts from the OT. The achievement is only a small part of it. If it were just the achievement, I wouldn't be complaining.

Originally Posted by Harlequin

The problem isn't just the achievement, it's the picture you get when you put all of those things together. I mean, of course, straight guys will get more options, I was never expecting them not to, but there are so many things that just scream half-arsed afterthought and "gays are second-class citizens" here. We've got less than half the number of options that straight guys have, we don't have any squadmate option (who get significantly more exposition, dialogue, etc. than non-suadmates), we don't have any option with a unique face, all of the gay male sex scenes are apparently fade-to-black whereas quite a few of the others are fully animated and include nudity and they put an achievement in the game that everyone but gay males can get without switching to a different gender or orientation (which in and of itself wouldn't be a problem but the fact that only gay men are forced to do it makes it one).

Originally Posted by Harlequin

I've already explained that it's not about the achievement specifically, it's about a bunch of little things which wouldn't be much of a problem on their own but paint the picture of all the gay male content being a half-arsed afterthought when put together.

SenjutsuSage
Banned
(03-21-2017, 01:49 AM)
Honestly, I'm all for politics, but I think this stuff is going way too damn far. Just how badly do people want to hate this game?
Nista
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:49 AM)
Nista's Avatar
I wish the Asari were more androgynous, because it would have made the romance choices a little easier. With them being so blatantly "blue sexy human women" they always hurt the gay male and hetero female options.

Wish they'd just let you go for non-sexy romances with the Salarians and Krogans, anatomy be damned. It'd be more interesting than generic looking human NPCs.
Square Triangle
Kratos can kill Zeus
but not Pam Anderson?
(03-21-2017, 01:50 AM)
Square Triangle's Avatar

Originally Posted by SenjutsuSage

Honestly, I'm all for politics, but I think this stuff is going way too damn far. Just how badly do people want to hate this game?

We live in a world dedicated to finding outrage. I'm not shocked.
Hopeford
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:50 AM)
Hopeford's Avatar
The trophy stuff is...badly planned and yeah, pretty bad. Honestly the trophy itself isn't the problem, but it is indicative of how much less attention the male gay character received than the other options. And that's the actual issue for me.

The trans stuff is one of those "Huh, learn something everyday" things to me. I understand not mentioning the name someone else used to go by, but I always assumed it was a-okay if the person themselves was doing it. Though I guess even if that was okay in a real life scenario, there's a difference when it's a writer making a character say it...hm, I'm admittedly out of my depth here, so I'll just defer to the people who know better.
GeordieMark
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:51 AM)
GeordieMark's Avatar
Bioware are one of the better devs when it comes to inclusivity. I'm sure this was just an oversight. I don't think it's fair to call them out for handling LGBT badly when they have been representing for years, and are streets ahead of most other studios in this regard. Highlight the error by all means, but I think they deserve the benefit of doubt.
Taruranto
<3 BioWare <3
(03-21-2017, 01:51 AM)
Taruranto's Avatar
I find the role-play argument kind weird, everyone who doesn't plan to sleep with 3 people is shafted either way.

The trans character dialogue is laughably bad on other hand, who the hell speak like that lol. Really try-hard, bad writing.

Originally Posted by True Fire

Oh my god, can you imagine? The internet outrage would be nuclear.

I dunno, didn't DAO have partner-specific achievement? Granted, the Internet is more prone to outrages nowadays.
Last edited by Taruranto; 03-21-2017 at 02:11 AM.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 01:52 AM)
I'm not even the guy to complain about stuff like this, but both of these things are just...wrong. Trans people DONT deadname themselves, that shit is poor writing and tells me you didn't do your research.

And the whole "if you're a gay male, you can't get this trophy" thing? Are you fucking kidding me? You can't even use the multiple playthrough excuse--straight men and lesbians can get the trophy just fine. Someone should've thought about this. :P
Biskie
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:52 AM)
Biskie's Avatar

Originally Posted by GeordieMark

Bioware are one of the better devs when it comes to inclusivity. I'm sure this was just an oversight. I don't think it's fair to call them out for handling LGBT badly when they have been representing for years, and are streets ahead of most other studios in this regard. Highlight the error by all means, but I think they deserve the benefit of doubt.

This is where I stand on it
SolicitorPirate
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:53 AM)
SolicitorPirate's Avatar
Earlier this morning, I saw some gay friends quite upset over the gay romances in MEA. At the time, I still believed Jaal was bi, and was thinking that while it sucked, at least there was one gay option in the party and it was the hot alien dude.

Turns out not only is Jaal straight, but a trans character just deadnames herself? Fuck me dead, BioWare...what happened here?
Lime
Banned
(03-21-2017, 01:54 AM)
Lime's Avatar

Originally Posted by SenjutsuSage

Honestly, I'm all for politics, but I think this stuff is going way too damn far. Just how badly do people want to hate this game?

Originally Posted by Square Triangle

We live in a world dedicated to finding outrage. I'm not shocked.

Trans representation matters.
OrionX
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:54 AM)
OrionX's Avatar
We could have had it all, Jaal :(
Lime
Banned
(03-21-2017, 01:56 AM)
Lime's Avatar

Originally Posted by GeordieMark

Bioware are one of the better devs when it comes to inclusivity. I'm sure this was just an oversight. I don't think it's fair to call them out for handling LGBT badly when they have been representing for years, and are streets ahead of most other studios in this regard. Highlight the error by all means, but I think they deserve the benefit of doubt.

Originally Posted by Biskie

This is where I stand on it

Criticism and feedback are good things. Just because they have a better track record than others doesn't mean they can't stumble and make errors. If people don't mention the flaws, how will Bioware's writers ever improve?
nynt9
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:56 AM)
nynt9's Avatar

Originally Posted by GeordieMark

Bioware are one of the better devs when it comes to inclusivity. I'm sure this was just an oversight. I don't think it's fair to call them out for handling LGBT badly when they have been representing for years, and are streets ahead of most other studios in this regard. Highlight the error by all means, but I think they deserve the benefit of doubt.

Except, this developer isn't Bioware. It's Bioware Montreal, a separate team. So they don't necessarily earn the benefit of the doubt for work that a separate development house did.
Valkerionseven
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:56 AM)
Valkerionseven's Avatar
Part of me thinks it is pretty lame for those who want to role play as an exclusive sexuality but at the same time the other half of me that could care less about achievements does not care.

I see the OP's point though, it is a strange choice to have that weird ratio between the sexes.
Biskie
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:56 AM)
Biskie's Avatar

Originally Posted by Lime

Criticism and feedback are good things. Just because they have a better track record than others doesn't mean they can't stumble and make errors. If people don't mention the flaws, how will Bioware's writers ever improve?

Did you even read the post? He specifically said it's fine to point out their error.
oneils
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:57 AM)
oneils's Avatar
Are we sure that we have discovered all of the romance options?
Systolique
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:57 AM)
Systolique's Avatar

Originally Posted by Lime

Criticism and feedback are good things. Just because they have a better track record than others doesn't mean they can't stumble and make errors. If people don't mention the flaws, how will Bioware's writers ever improve?

The post you're quoting literally says "Highlight the error by all means"
Sophia
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:57 AM)
Sophia's Avatar

Originally Posted by Hopeford

The trophy stuff is...badly planned and yeah, pretty bad.

The trans stuff is one of those "Huh, learn something everyday" things to me. I understand not mentioning the name someone else used to go by, but I always assumed it was a-okay if the person themselves was doing it. Though I guess even if that was okay in a real life scenario, there's a difference when it's a writer making a character say it...hm, I'm admittedly out of my depth here, so I'll just defer to the people who know better.

Ultimately the problem with it is that it's extremely awkward writing, because this isn't how a transgender woman or man would typically introduce themselves. Technically, it would be okay if they person themselves was revealing it, but there's better ways to handle it then "What brings you out here?" "Oh I used to be a guy named Steve..."

I wouldn't say it's outright transphobic as I can't determine the writer's intent, but I think it easily qualifies as careless and a bit tactless.
Harlequin
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:57 AM)

Originally Posted by SenjutsuSage

Honestly, I'm all for politics, but I think this stuff is going way too damn far. Just how badly do people want to hate this game?

I didn't want to hate it at all. I quite liked the trial and defended it from people complaining about the animations (even though, no, the facial animations don't look great). But this just feels kind of insulting from a company that likes to prize itself on being progressive and inclusive and that knows it has a large LGBT+ following. I expect certain things from a BioWare game that I don't expect from other games (like a certain amount LGBT+ inclusiveness) and I don't expect other things from it that I might expect from other games (like good facial animations). That's just the way it is.
marzlapin
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:57 AM)
marzlapin's Avatar
I thought Jaal was bi. That's super shitty not to include any m/m options in the squad.
Garrett Hawke
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:58 AM)
Garrett Hawke's Avatar

Originally Posted by Bladenic

Neither gay option is a squad mate? Wow. Dragon Age Inquisition was so good about it too.

Mass Effect has never had your starting human squadmates be gay. I don't think it's a coincidence at this point, I think it is intentional because Mass Effect has more mainstream appeal than Dragon Age and they don't want to put off the str8s.
Silvard
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:58 AM)
Silvard's Avatar

Originally Posted by Guess Who

The problem with "maybe they want you to play multiple orientations for multiple playthroughs" is that it doesn't apply to any other orientation than "gay male Ryder," because all other orientations have enough romance options to do this in one playthrough.

Wait, you can romance multiple partners in a single playthrough?
Zero315
Member
(03-21-2017, 01:58 AM)
Zero315's Avatar

Originally Posted by Harlequin

I'll copy-paste my other two posts from the OT. The achievement is only a small part of it. If it were just the achievement, I wouldn't be complaining.

Okay, now I'm pissed. If this is true then it's completely obvious that zero thought or effort was put into the gay male side.
Taelus
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 02:00 AM)
Taelus's Avatar
A trans person saying "I used to go by X" is not deadnaming.
Grazzt
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:00 AM)
Grazzt's Avatar

Originally Posted by Replicant

Apart from Gil, who's the romanceable gay male character?

Reyes Vidal.
SolicitorPirate
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:00 AM)
SolicitorPirate's Avatar

Originally Posted by Valkerionseven

Part of me thinks it is pretty lame for those who want to role play as an exclusive sexuality but at the same time the other half of me that could care less about achievements scoffs at this.

I see the OP's point though.

Even as someone who does not give a flying fuck about achievements (with the weird exception of For Honor. I haven't really figured out why I care about that one), I still think this is bad even if you ignore the achievements.

There are no gay party members whatsoever, and feedback appears to be that unlike DAI, which did a stellar job with Cullen and Josephine, the non-party member romances in MEA just aren't up to par.

And the transgender character just seems bad. I appreciate that they at least put a character in, but holy crap.
Bahorel
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 02:00 AM)
Bahorel's Avatar

Originally Posted by marzlapin

I thought Jaal was bi. That's super shitty not to include any m/m options in the squad.

http://stevivor.com/features/guides/...-sleep-with/3/

Seems that Jaal is straight.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
(03-21-2017, 02:00 AM)
Stumpokapow's Avatar

Originally Posted by Burbeting

I would agree on that it's a fine viewpoint, but the problem is that the straight male Ryder, straight female Ryder and gay female Ryder characters are not forced through the same thing. They can potentially get the trophy/achievement only romancing characters based on the same sexual orientation.

I honestly think the argument smacks a little of tokenism; we ought be concerned that gay men are well represented, that the stories told for and by and about gay men are rich and represent a diversity of experience, and that players can feel confident knowing that the story they want to tell and play can be told and that they feel valued and unashamed of who they are. When this crosses the line to counting (or the truly stupid idea that you just make every character bi and have the player fully dictate every interaction), I think that undermines the goal of real representation.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be more choices or there shouldn't be better choices -- I'm simply saying I really strenuously object to going down the path of making this about counting rather than a holistic kind of representation. And especially for achievements to be an anchor by which we judge this.
Burbeting
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:01 AM)
Burbeting's Avatar

Originally Posted by Harlequin

I'll copy-paste my other two posts from the OT. The achievement is only a small part of it. If it were just the achievement, I wouldn't be complaining.

Added these two posts to the OP. My eyes missed them, it's 3am in where I live right now.
Dryk
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:02 AM)
Dryk's Avatar

Originally Posted by Hopeford

I understand not mentioning the name someone else used to go by, but I always assumed it was a-okay if the person themselves was doing it. Though I guess even if that was okay in a real life scenario, there's a difference when it's a writer making a character say it...hm, I'm admittedly out of my depth here, so I'll just defer to the people who know better.

Yeah it's fine if people want to do that, and there are some people that will. But by and large trans people don't talk like this.
Garrett Hawke
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:03 AM)
Garrett Hawke's Avatar

Originally Posted by Stumpokapow

I honestly think the argument smacks a little of tokenism; we ought be concerned that gay men are well represented, that the stories told for and by and about gay men are rich and represent a diversity of experience, and that players can feel confident knowing that the story they want to tell and play can be told and that they feel valued and unashamed of who they are. When this crosses the line to counting (or the truly stupid idea that you just make every character bi and have the player fully dictate every interaction), I think that undermines the goal of real representation.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be more choices or there shouldn't be better choices -- I'm simply saying I really strenuously object to going down the path of making this about counting rather than a holistic kind of representation. And especially for achievements to be an anchor by which we judge this.

Harlequin's post is a good counter to this, though - it doesn't seem like the same care was put into gay male ryder options at all.

Originally Posted by Harlequin

We've got less than half the number of options that straight guys have, we don't have any squadmate option (who get significantly more exposition, dialogue, etc. than non-suadmates), we don't have any option with a unique face, all of the gay male sex scenes are apparently fade-to-black whereas quite a few of the others are fully animated and include nudity and they put an achievement in the game that everyone but gay males can get without switching to a different gender or orientation (which in and of itself wouldn't be a problem but the fact that only gay men are forced to do it makes it one).

The bit about the sex scenes being far more tame, and the gay male options that are available being character creator faces rather than unique models is really disappointing.
Dmax3901
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:03 AM)
Dmax3901's Avatar
Re the poorly handled trans character, brings up an interesting counterpoint to the people who push back against those who say "sure but only if it's handled well" in regards to LGBT characters in games.
Systolique
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:04 AM)
Systolique's Avatar

Originally Posted by marzlapin

I thought Jaal was bi. That's super shitty not to include any m/m options in the squad.

There is no f/f romance in the squad either, it's either straight or bi
A Link to the Past
Snitch
(03-21-2017, 02:04 AM)
A Link to the Past's Avatar

Originally Posted by Taelus

A trans person saying "I used to go by X" is not deadnaming.

Trans people are saying it is.

Also, this is not a real trans person, it's a character in a story. The writers deadnamed the character.
hao chi
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:04 AM)
hao chi's Avatar
Maybe it's because I generally don't care about achievements, but I'm not really bothered by there not being enough gay male romance options to get the trophy without romancing a female. The thing that stands out to me more is how female Ryder has more gay options than straight. Bioware has no shame with their pandering there (though that also makes me wonder why the didn't make Ryder more attractive, since I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were purposely trying to pander less).
Replicant
There's a duck in the room
There's a duck i-OWWWW
(03-21-2017, 02:05 AM)
Replicant's Avatar

Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

Mass Effect has never had your starting human squadmates be gay. I don't think it's a coincidence at this point, I think it is intentional because Mass Effect has more mainstream appeal than Dragon Age and they don't want to put off the str8s.

That's not true. Datamined revealed that there was an unused portion of Kaiden's Voiceover in ME1 where Male Shepherd could flirt with him. True, out of fear, they took that out in the final product but the intention on making him bi was there from the beginning and it got restored back in ME3.
Garrett Hawke
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:05 AM)
Garrett Hawke's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dmax3901

Re the poorly handled trans character, brings up an interesting counterpoint to the people who push back against those who say "sure but only if it's handled well" in regards to LGBT characters in games.

this one exception does not prove a point, though, and that argument is pretty much unanimously used as an excuse not to include trans characters at all.

imagine if people tried to use ride to hell: retribution's main character as an argument for why straight men should never star in games.
depths20XX
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:06 AM)
depths20XX's Avatar
Yikes, that writing for the trans character seems terrible. Like someone was trying to shoehorn it in.
Garrett Hawke
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:06 AM)
Garrett Hawke's Avatar

Originally Posted by Replicant

That's not true. Datamined revealed that there was an unused portion of Kaiden's Voiceover in ME1 where Male Shepherd could flirt with him. True, out of fear, they took that out in the final product but the intention on making him bi was there from the beginning and it got restored back in ME3.

Unused means it is true :P

while they considered it, they didn't do it, thus ME has never had your starting human squad mates as same sex options.

MShep CAN romance Kaidan in ME3, but he disappears from the team on one of the first story missions, so isn't one of your "starters".
Salarians
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:07 AM)
Salarians's Avatar

Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

Mass Effect has never had your starting human squadmates be gay. I don't think it's a coincidence at this point, I think it is intentional because Mass Effect has more mainstream appeal than Dragon Age and they don't want to put off the str8s.

Not only that, the only gay squadmate we've had in ME ever is Nyreen, who gets blown up.

And the only bisexual guy (Kaidan) shows zero interest in any man except Shepard, while still making comments asserting his interest in women.

Oh, and Jack mentions she's slept with women in ME2, but is not a romance option for female Shepard.

🙃
someday
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:07 AM)
someday's Avatar
I think it's weird that gay men and straight women have the fewest romantic options. In what world do lesbians have more options than straight women? And sign me up.
Hopeford
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:07 AM)
Hopeford's Avatar

Originally Posted by Sophia

Ultimately the problem with it is that it's extremely awkward writing, because this isn't how a transgender woman or man would typically introduce themselves. Technically, it would be okay if they person themselves was revealing it, but there's better ways to handle it then "What brings you out here?" "Oh I used to be a guy named Steve..."

I wouldn't say it's outright transphobic as I can't determine the writer's intent, but I think it easily qualifies as careless and a bit tactless.

Oh yeah I went to look up the scene afterwards because I figured hey, context matters and all and...yeah, it's definitely really awkward writing. It feels badly written, but I wasn't picking up on the transphobia part the OP mentioned so I was a little confused.

I'd agree on tactless though, since the issue is so significant, handling it with throwaway, awkward dialogue is a little..ehhhhhhhhhh.
Harlequin
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:07 AM)

Originally Posted by Systolique

There is no f/f romance in the squad either, it's either straight or bi

You mean that there's no exclusively lesbian squadmate? That's true but there are two F/F romance options in the squad (both of whom are also romanceable by Scott but still) versus no M/M ones.
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks
Wolfric the Wild
(03-21-2017, 02:08 AM)
Sub-Zero at a Starbucks's Avatar

Originally Posted by Suzushiiro

Honestly, the implication that transphobia is still a thing in fuckin' 2180 is kinda weird on its own.

We're gonna be bigoted as shit as long as the human race is still around. It's not that weird.
Grazzt
Member
(03-21-2017, 02:08 AM)
Grazzt's Avatar

Originally Posted by Harlequin

We've got less than half the number of options that straight guys have, we don't have any squadmate option (who get significantly more exposition, dialogue, etc. than non-suadmates), we don't have any option with a unique face, all of the gay male sex scenes are apparently fade-to-black whereas quite a few of the others are fully animated and include nudity and they put an achievement in the game that everyone but gay males can get without switching to a different gender or orientation (which in and of itself wouldn't be a problem but the fact that only gay men are forced to do it makes it one).

Now I'm pissed. Considering cancelling my pre-order.
Ratros
Junior Member
(03-21-2017, 02:08 AM)
Ratros's Avatar

Originally Posted by Garrett Hawke

seriously, omg

if they forced you into a m/m relationship for a trophy the anders outrage would look like nothing.

Exactly.

To be honest I hate it even more when the only two m/m romance options are generic characters who are not even on Ryder's squad and do not have a deep back story to explore at all. It almost feels like Bioware realizes the whole sexuality thing much later in the development cycle and decides to add a few sidekicks in just for the sake of having it.

Thread Tools